Volchenkov's hit on Simon Gagne: Fair or foul?
by Dirk Hoag on Mar 24, 2010 12:29 PM EDT
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PrintThe Philadelphia Flyers are steaming mad today over an incident in last night's game against Ottawa involving a hit along the boards by Anton Volchenkov on Philly's Simon Gagne. The Flyers' reaction to the hit led to a Senators goal, and afterward Gagne went after Volchenkov, drawing 19 minutes in penalties and leaving his teammates shorthanded for 7 minutes.
Besides the obvious irony of the Flyers complaining about the referees after the stuff they got away with in Nashville last week, however, there's good reason to believe that Philadelphia is way off base here.
The Flyers players and coaches cried foul after the game for the lack of a call on Volchenkov's hit, but watch the video for yourself, and be open to the possibility (as voiced by the color commentator) that Gagne's last-second turn to face the boards is what made this play so dangerous. Follow after the jump to check out the video, along with a further breakdown:
After seeing some of the details, I think you'll agree that Gagne put himself in a dangerous spot here...
Let's take a look at some screen captures from this video. We start with Volchenkov approaching Gagne from the side as he plays the puck. At this point he's probably 4-5 feet away from making contact:
In our next shot, Volchenkov's about 3 feet away, still coming at Gagne's side:
Only now do we see Gagne's back turning towards the oncoming checker, when he's about 1 foot away from impact:
Here comes the hit, square in Gagne's back:
Followed by the dangerous aftermath:
Do you notice something, however, about those first four screen captures?
They all occurred within a single second.
There is simply no way that Volchenkov had time to pull up once Gagne turned to face the boards. The game of hockey, particularly at the NHL level, is simply too fast-paced to expect that in milliseconds, a guy like Volchenkov should be able to ease up and avoid potential injury to Gagne. At the time he was coming in, he expected to nail Gagne from the side, which is completely legal. Notice in the background of those shots that a referee and linesman were looking directly at the play.
Many would claim this should have drawn a Boarding call. From the NHL Rule Book (emphasis mine),
42.1 Boarding - A boarding penalty shall be imposed on any player who checks an opponent in such a manner that causes the opponent to be thrown violently in the boards. The severity of the penalty, based upon
the degree of violence of the impact with the boards, shall be at the discretion of the Referee.
There is an enormous amount of judgment involved in the application of this rule by the Referees. The onus is on the player applying the check to ensure his opponent is not in a vulnerable position and if so, he must avoid the contact. However, there is also a responsibility on the player with the puck to avoid placing himself in a dangerous and vulnerable position. This balance must be considered by the Referees when applying this rule.
I'm sure what drives people nuts is the amount of judgment written into this rule, but the fact remains that this hit would have not been anywhere near as dangerous if Gagne had not made that last, split-second turn to face the boards.
To those who would say that any hit to the back should automatically be penalized no matter the circumstance, that opens the door to players with the puck deliberately turning to the boards in order to draw a penalty. It's unworkable in practice.
Hockey is a dangerous, fast-paced game, and beyond skating, puck handling and shooting skills, we should marvel at players' ability to generally avoid nasty collisions like this on a shift-by-shift basis. There are times, however, when the inevitable occurs, and someone takes a nasty tumble into the boards. Let's just be thankful that in this case, Simon Gagne was able to get up in time to watch the puck go into his own net.
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Your point is well taken (well, outside PHI) but players routinely finish checks from behind now. If the NHL wants to seriously get those hits out of the game, they have to address it. Yeah, AV had little time to respond once Gagne fully turned, but in live action he could read how that play was unfolding (of course, you don’t want AV in a position where Gagne could sell the turn then just maintain puck control and take advantage of AV, it’s a tough line). My main concern is that there would have no doubt been a major PIM and probably a suspension if Gagne hadn’t gotten up. What’s the sense in that? Either we accept dangerous hits like this as “hockey is just a dangerous game and people get hurt,” in which case you don’t suspend or penalize people when there are injuries; or we punish all the dangerous hits because they have the potential to injure. To accept the ones that don’t injure as “hockey is a dangerous game” but punish the ones that do injure makes absolutely no sense.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I agree 100% that the NHL’s policy of punishing consequences, not actions, completely undermines their ability to deter dangerous hits.
I disagree 100% that AV should have been able to read the way the play was unfolding and anticipate that Gagne would turn like that, pulling up ahead of time. That kind of culture would indeed take hitting out of the game.
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I’m sensitive to that, and can accept that position. I just see hits like this all the time and the NHL hasn’t really figured out how to handle it. This hit was worse than the one AO laid on Kaleta, but Kaleta bled a little so AO got a game. If it were up to me I’d say players have to start pulling up as soon as they see the back. I don’t think AV did enough to pull up, but you’re right that it happened very fast (and that rule isn’t on the books so he has no duty to fully pull up). Ultimately a hit like this is going to kill someone or break their neck. Then where will we be?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Also, even if it’s not a hit from behind, you don’t think that could be boarding or charging?
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
I believe I addressed the boarding issue above – the refs have leeway not to make the call if they deem the victim has put himself in a dangerous position.
The replay picks up with Volchenkov coming in from just a few feet away, so I don’t know if he wound up for long enough for it to be Charging or not. The Charging rule is probably the most maddeningly-vague rule in the book, and could conceivably be called 10 times every game.
More fun than a stick to the face!
On the Forecheck is SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators.
Agreed about how vague both rules are. I understand that Gagne has a responsibility to protect himself, but I think that goes more to the hit from behind. If a guy is standing still 3 feet from the boards and you run him, that’s boarding. It doesn’t really matter what way he’s facing. You could say that Gagne has a responsibility to not be 3 feet from the boards, but that basically boils down to open season on everyone anywhere on the ice.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Love the analysis. However, I think the hit was just a misfortunate occurence for both Volchenkov and Gagne. Gagne put himself in a bad position to be hit. Volchenkov couldn’t stop himself in a split second.
You want to see better judgement from players in situations like this. I don’t think the hit was dirty, but players definitely need to think twice before doing things like this.
Oh, and the fact that the Flyers are blaming the loss based on this hit is ludicrous. Hockey is a 60 minute game. One hit will not make or break the game. If you want to retaliate for something like this, win the game.
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What more can I say?
Its not just the hit, its the subsequent goal and then Gagne having to take matter into his own hands (perhaps the wrong decision) and the 7 min PK that really killed the game for the Flyers. In that way, the hit and the series of events following reduced the chance of the Flyers coming back in the game.
Also, nice work on the stills. Mucho respecto for what you all do over here on this site. Stuff thats relevant for all fans.
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dirty play
volchenkov had 0 time to react and gagne knew this. I’ve seen this in games before where the player about to get hit will turn away from the checker to try to draw a penalty. it is a dirty play taking advantage of a guy trying to play the right way. and volchenkov had to hit gagne as hard as he did. if Gagne hadn’t turned away it would have been a shoulder into the boards kind of hit which would have been easy to bounce back from without even falling, so volchenkov had to hit as hard as he did just to try to delay gagne a little. Gagne created the dangerous play and hit all himself, its a cheating play from a player not above that kind of stuff.
This post makes me cringe. To even suggest that a guy who just came off a concussion – which took nearly a year to recover from – would purposefully place himself in a position to sustain another one, just to get a two minute power play is incredibly asinine.
It’s one thing to defend Volchenkov as not intending to make such a dangerous hit, it’s another to ignore the danger and say one player purposefully risked a career-ending, potentially even life-threatening, injury just to get a power play. Hopefully, your crudeness and cynicism don’t rub off.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you in this instance. Gagne is not the kind of guy that is going to risk that, IMO. But the other night Steve Downie did the exact same thing and drew a PP for TBL. Fehr was closing in on him and at the last second Downie turned to go face first into the boards. People disagree with me, but I think that’s exactly what happened with the AO on Kaleta hit as well. Kaleta clearly sees AO coming (another difference with the Gagne hit, I’m not sure he ever saw Volchenkov coming) and then instead of bracing himself or doing anything to defend himself he puts himself in the worst possible position. At best it was stupid, but I think it was willful to draw a PIM.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
Oh, I’m definitely not saying it doesn’t happen, but here, there’s absolutely no way Gagne does that.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Gagne didn't do it to draw a penalty
He did it to play the puck. He did so in a dangerous manner, but he wasn’t hoping to get checked from behind.
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in high school i had the awareness to see if i was going to get hit in a situation like that and to position myself to take the hit safely. i find it hard to believe that Gagne wouldn’t have a much better handle on that. i stil believe that if he wanted to he could have positioned himself to land shoulder first into the boards. sorry if i seem unfair at this, but this kind of stuff royally pissed me off in high school play, and i still don’t like seeing pros pull this kind of stuff.
Nothing was more frustrating to me at the high school level than a hit like this. A hit from behind at the high school level, depending on severity, is a two minute bench minor as well as a ten minute major and can go all the way up to suspension. Kids would turn at the last second because they knew they would draw a huge penalty if they were hit. NHL players should know better than to pull this cheap garbage. Just take the hit. It’s not worth getting yourself killed to draw a boarding call.
I think dirty is the wrong word.
It was dangerous, and it’s boarding. It’s a 2 minute penalty. But people would mostly ignore this hit if it wasn’t for the circumstances that surrounded it (goal scored, Gagne fighting, Senators getting a 7 minute powerplay).
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
Great job Dirk. There is very little to argue about here, except for this one sentence:
I think you’ll agree that Gagne put himself in a dangerous spot here…
You note how often plays like this happen, and how lucky it is that these hits don’t happen more frequently, which is correct. But this play happens all the time, and blaming the guy who got hit is sickening. Obviously, I’m not saying you’re doing that, but you’re at least saying had Gagne not turned, he would not have been dangerously hit.
The problem is that Gagne was in a vulnerable position long before he even touched the puck. At the beginning of the clip, you can see Volchenkov start skating towards Gagne, who has his back to the Ottawa net. This grab right here is as soon as the puck hits Gagne’s stick:
That’s Volchenkov’s stick in the picture. If you argue he went for the puck, he lost, but he defended Gagne effectively. No need to then lay a body check. Also, from this angle, it’s fairly obvious that Gagne is not a threat to turn and beat him down the wall. In essence, this screen grab shows that the only thing that would come of this play is exactly what happened: Gagne chips the puck into the zone and the Senators regroup.
Move to your first screen grab – with Volchenkov 4-5 feet away – and Gagne’s already in a vulnerable position, with only one skate on the ground. While this might not be a hit from behind, it’s still a dangerous hit at this point, with Volchenkov 4 or 5 feet away.
My point – and I tried to express this in the recap – is that this hit is indicative of everything wrong with the NHL. I am by no means saying Volchenkov is a dirty player, but this is yet another unnecessary hit (he defended Gagne already, who was no longer a threat) thrown in a dangerous manner, with no regard for the player’s safety. As Fehr and Balanced said, had Gagne left on a stretcher, this would be a huge suspension. He didn’t.
The NHL’s inconsistencies with hits like these will continue to frustrate the fans they manage to keep, and continue to keep potential fans away.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
We'll have to agree to disagree
I do put the blame on Gagne here. The only reason this hit is dangerous is because he turns to face the boards just as Volchenkov is making the hit.
This situation does happen all too often, and yes, I do blame the guy who turns to face the boards. It’s a dangerous play, and they need to protect themselves first and foremost. Checkers shouldn’t have to pull up well ahead of time on the chance that such a last-second change of position might occur.
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Checkers shouldn’t have to pull up well ahead of time on the chance that such a last-second change of position might occur.
This I certainly agree with. My frustration comes from many places, not least of which is the fact that there used to be an unwritten rule among players, mostly out of respect, that you don’t run skill guys (who aren’t going to run anybody on your team) in unnecessary situations. This was a skill guy, getting run in an unnecessary situation.
Obviously, I’m not advocating for skill guys to be untouchable (Crosby needs to be run every chance we get), but in a harmless play like this, where Gagne is clearly no threat to the Senators, to make a dangerous hit (even if Gagne hadn’t turned, it’s still dangerous – agree to disagree) speaks more to the state of the game than the individual players.
I hope that last sentence (paragraph) made sense.
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The only reason skill players used to be untouchable was because a Bob Probert or Dave Semenko was standing by to pummel anyone who dared hit them. Thanks to the instigator rule, that’s no longer the case.
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Exactly.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Mar 24, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that a good thing or a bad thing, in your opinion? I’m glad total goons that can’t play are out of the game (or mostly out of the game), but I think the instigator has gone too far in taking self-policing out of the game. It’s a fine line but I don’t think the NHL has done an adequate job of balancing the interests. I think the instigator needs to be relaxed in a lot of situations.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
definitely
It was discussed on the Preds broadcast last night-the instigator needs to go. You’d see fewer hits like the Cooke one if he knew that Thornton was coming right behind him to tear his head off.
Well, maybe it doesn’t need to go completely, but in the case of policing it does. You could still call it for randomly jumping a guy, especially with less than 5 left.
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by Chris Burton on Mar 24, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it should be applied when people start fights after fully clean hits, but not used if the hit is illegal, dirty, questionable, etc. And I’d instruct the refs to err on the side of allowing self-policing. If the fight really wasn’t warranted the NHL can fine a guy after.
Killer_Carlson and Steckel Me Elmo are like brothers to me. And when I say brothers I don't mean like actual brothers. I mean it like how black people use it, which is more meaningful, I think.
A couple of things you didn’t address:
First, although you purport to dissect and comment on the play frame by frame, you leave out the truly eggregious part of the hit, which was Volchenkov’s extending of the arms and forceful pushing of Gagne into the boards face first.
Second, even if Gagne had been facing Volchenkov, and then checked into the boards, this is still boarding (see the rule you cite), because he still would have been propelled violently into the boards. So, it’s irrelevant whether Gagne turned or not. Moreover, Gagne didn’t move into some position where he would expect to be boarded. He was stationary and charged by Volchenkov. No referee has given Gagne’s positioning as a reason for not calling the penalty. What they allegedly told Gagne was that they did not see the play, which if true, is a truly amazing admission.
Finally, even Volchenkov knew he should have been penalized for this. He stopped playing for a moment after the hit. Why? Because he was expecting the be penalized. Furthermore, here’s Volchenkov’s own quote from after the game: “I like to play physical, but I like to play clean physical. Sometimes maybe it is dirty, but it’s hockey it’s tough.”
Right on.
Hehe
“Let’s just be thankful that in this case, Simon Gagne was able to get up in time to watch the puck go into his own net.”
anyone that thinks that boarding is funny has never played
Funny.. Simon Gagne dropped the gloves.
THE COWARD Volchenko that just boarded him…got on his knees and tried to bite his leg.
Have you ever played hockey?
If you are going to go head hunting then you better be ready to drop the gloves.
Even Scott Stevens who didn’t fight after age 25 had to try to defend himself the next time he faced Lindros. He got pummeled..
Richards dropped to fight Booth.. Booth actually thanked him after the game for being a man.
The Russians have a long history of hitting knee to knee, from behind, after the whistle, and using their stick as a weapon. Rarely do they fight because they are fundementally cowards…
Ovechkin is the best player…however how many hits from behind will the league tolerate.. he get’s hit and then immediately retaliates with a late cheap shot..
Funny.. Simon Gagne dropped the gloves.
THE COWARD Volchenko that just boarded him…got on his knees and tried to bite his leg.
Have you ever played hockey?
If you are going to go head hunting then you better be ready to drop the gloves.
Even Scott Stevens who didn’t fight after age 25 had to try to defend himself the next time he faced Lindros. He got pummeled..
Richards dropped to fight Booth.. Booth actually thanked him after the game for being a man.
The Russians have a long history of hitting knee to knee, from behind, after the whistle, and using their stick as a weapon. Rarely do they fight because they are fundementally cowards…
Ovechkin is the best player…however how many hits from behind will the league tolerate.. he get’s hit and then immediately retaliates with a late cheap shot..In other words… keep laughing. The Flyers have a long memory and they will get the last laugh…and it will be looking right in your players face…not at HIS BACK!!
THE COWARD Volchenkov...
…is the NHL’s all-time leader in blocked shots. How the hell is he a coward, again?
Volchenkov didn’t fight primarily because he had no opportunity to (Gagne tackled him to the ice), but also because he’s not a fighter. The idea that hockey players are required to fight is a ludicrous notion. If a player does something that you don’t like, hit them hard and clean, and win the game.
Also, stop with the xenophobic comments about Russians. You’re as bad as Cherry.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
As Darren stated,
he didn’t really have a chance to drop his gloves. He was jumped by Gagne, which could be argued is just as “cowardly/dirty” as boarding someone.
Already discussed...
but I think the 2 key points that make this hit dirty in my views are:
(1) Gagne isn’t turning into the boards to draw a penalty or to avoid the hit. He was turning in a fluid motion to play the puck into the offensive zone. I’m not sure he had a clue that Volchenkov was even coming towards him when he begins to make this play. This is different than a player in the corner that has glanced over their shoulder to see the defender coming and then turns into the boards to try and avoid the hit at the last second or draw a penalty. Gagne turns into the boards as part of playing the pass up ice from Carle. There’s really nowhere else for Gagne to go to make that play or any other way for him to place his body.
(2) Volchenkov doesn’t just put his shoulder into Gagne. He fully extends his arms and throws Gagne into the boards. That crosses the line and it wouldn’t really matter if it was from the front, side or otherwise…that is a dangerous and dirty play given the location of the players.
I’m glad Gagne wasn’t hurt and the Flyers didn’t lose the game solely because of this play, but it was a huge moment in the game and it could’ve (and should’ve in my view) gone the other way…
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Since most of the other concerns have already been addressed, I’d like to just point out that calling things ‘ironic’ simply because the Flyers got away with penalties in Nashville last week is kinda out there. You’re blaming the Flyers for the refs errors? And because the refs didn’t call a few penalties against the Flyers in the third period of a game the week before, they’re not allowed to complain about the they receive treatment in a completely separate game?
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Its ironic because they were on the good end of some pissy officiating last week, now they know how it feels. I don’t think Dirk is saying they don’t have a right to complain. And “ironic” doesn’t translate to “blaming Flyers”.
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by Chris Burton on Mar 25, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the impression I got from it.
Besides the obvious irony of the Flyers complaining about the referees after the stuff they got away with in Nashville last week, however, there’s good reason to believe that Philadelphia is way off base here.
It’s not like he’s saying “it’s ironic because the Flyers were on the good side of the officiating”, he’s saying that it’s ironic because “of the Flyers complaining about the referees.”
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by Travis Hughes on Mar 25, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, I’ll jump in, because even with those stills, I don’t see how Gagne could’ve seen Volchenkov coming.
He’s coming from his back side (although yes, it’s from the side) and Gagne is looking down the entire time. It’s still completely blindsided. Plus, Volchenkov never glided into Gagne. It’s, at the very least, a blatant charge.
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