If Alexander Radulov were to return to the NHL, would he have to clear waivers?
by Dirk Hoag on Oct 1, 2011 6:39 PM EDT
in Nashville Predators Analysis
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There was quite a bit of conversation on Twitter today about the theoretical implications if Alexander Radulov were to return to the NHL soon, and one point that I made to folks was that if A-Rad were to come back after Friday, October 7th, he would have to clear waivers in order to play for the Nashville Predators, which presents just one more obstacle to the notion of this actually happening, regardless of his squabbles with his KHL team, Salavat Yulaev Ufa.
Here's what Article 13.23 of the NHL's Collective Bargaining Agreement has to say on the matter:
In the event a professional or former professional Player plays in a league outside North America after the start of the NHL Regular Season, other than on Loan from his Club, he may thereafter play in the NHL during that Playing Season (including Playoffs) only if he has first either cleared or been obtained via Waivers. For the balance of the Playing Season, any such Player who has been obtained via Waivers may be Traded or Loaned only after again clearing Waivers or through Waiver claim.
It seems crystal-clear to me that this language would apply to Alexander Radulov if he were to try and come back to the NHL after continuing to play in the KHL after Friday, the start of the NHL Regular Season. It contains no qualification for guys under contract vs. free agents, nor are there any such references in the surrounding text. It also makes no reference to whether players are on the roster for their respective NHL team or not. He is most certainly not "on loan" from the Predators to the KHL, therefore he could only come back and play for Nashville (or any team in the NHL, for that matter) "if he has first either cleared or been obtained via Waivers."
If anyone can find language to the contrary, I'm all ears. Feel free to download a copy of the CBA from the NHLPA's site, but watch out - this document is sleep-inducing, so please do not attempt to operate heavy machinery while reading.
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and it in no way matters that he left without the team’s blessing?
60% of the time it works every time
Lame.
Not even the exemption list early in that article would help now that Rads is 25 and a few years removed from his last played game here. I was under the impression his situation was grandfathered in or something where other teams couldn’t claim him, because he still had the contract with the Preds.
Radz
it might make a difference that the Predators have him suspended. When the other players attempted to return from other leagues they weren’t suspended by their NHL team to my knowledge.
If you can find that logic in the text above or elsewhere in the CBA, I’d be glad to see it!
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
No amount of evidence will undermine the hopes and wishes of the ARad crowd, Dirk…….logic be damned! :D
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 1, 2011 7:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How about...
we have 1 month of OTF without mention of Radulov. He’s gone, folks. Lets get over it. And from the sounds of his interviews, he’s an arrogant primadonna who probably revels in the fact that his name is still mentioned in Nashville. So lets stop being the “whipped” ex-boyfriend/girlfriend drunk at the bar, beating his fists, and mumbling, “Radulov, come home.” Forget him!
Hockey Fights Cancer and so do I
Join me at
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+1!
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 1, 2011 7:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How about move the Coyotes to Quebec City already and we trade Rad’s rights to them for some picks? I know he wants to play there again.
Or to the Habs for AK47 & a 1st rounder. :)
Of course, I’d imagine that he would have to clear waivers in that case as well.
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 1, 2011 8:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No offense buddy, but he’s not gone. It’s pretty possible, if not likely, that he returns to the NHL next season. You think we’re talking about it a lot? There’s probably five times as much speculation going on in Russia right now, and they’re pretty convinced this is his final season in the KHL for a while. This is whats happening, and if he really does come back to the NHL next year, our franchise will be right in the middle of it whether he plays here or not.
Moral of the story: it’s more than worth talking about. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
Well said! We dont need him, we’ve done fine without him. When the next offensive superstar comes for the Preds, he will be forgotten. Have some pride and get over him. He burned us and he doesnt want to come back… He is a great player but he’s not an automatic stanley cup for the preds if he comes back.
I don't believe for one second that he will ever come back, but...
IF he wanted to come back after Oct. 7th, could the Preds block it in any way? Or would they just be powerless to watch him be claimed off waivers?
"Get to the Choppa!"
LET ME BE CLEAR
by predswilrule on Oct 1, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm, that’s an intriguing scenario you present there. I like it!
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 1, 2011 11:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I hate to state the obvious
But he is under contract to the Preds. In no way can he play for another team in the NHL, or another team own his rights. The only thing the waiver rule might do is prevent him from returning to the Preds, or any other NHL team, this season. If he did come back either a) the commish would waive the waiver rule (and I don’t think any team in the league would complain about this), or b) another team might pick him up on waivers, but then have to trade for his contract.
you don't understand the waiver system at all
every player who is put on waivers is under contract to a team — it’s simply not possible for a team to put a player on waivers unless it has him signed to an SPC…
when a waiver claim is made, the new team takes assignment of the player’s SPC — there’s no trading involved…
the Commissioner would not waive this Rule, and if he considered it, MOST teams would complain — I guarantee you Edmonton would…
Yes but
the Preds are the one with the contract, so the Preds are the team who would have to put him on waivers.
And absolutely the Commish should waive the Rule, and all teams would stand behind it. They all know The Preds own his NHL rights, have him under contract, and the manner in which he left.
the Preds are the one with the contract, so the Preds are the team who would have to put him on waivers.
okay, I see what you’re saying… your point is the NHL would enforce that final year of the ELC, and therefore if Radulov returns, it is the Preds who would have to put him on waivers… I was thinking the NHL may not enforce it, Radulov does not appear on the Preds Reserve List, and he may be allowed to sign a new SPC… it is an unusual situation and the NHL tends to do whatever it wants regardless of what the CBA may state in these situations…
If he did come back either a) the commish would waive the waiver rule (and I don’t think any team in the league would complain about this)
And absolutely the Commish should waive the Rule, and all teams would stand behind it. They all know The Preds own his NHL rights, have him under contract, and the manner in which he left
but I still disagree about waiving the Rule… the issue of whether it is the Preds or another team that would have his NHL rights is irrelevant… the reason waivers would be required is he would have been playing in Europe after the start of the NHL season, there is no exception for a player who does so in violation of his NHL contract…
Radulov’s NHL reps know this, so the onus is on him to stop playing if he intends to return to the NHL, just as other players who were waiting for new NHL deals have played in Europe right up to the start of the NHL season, but always stop because they know this Rule would apply…
b) another team might pick him up on waivers, but then have to trade for his contract.
also still incorrect… if he’s claimed on waivers, after being put on waivers by whichever team and with whatever NHL SPC, that new team gets assigned his contract… that’s the whole point of the waiver system, to assign a player’s contract to another team… if the deal isn’t assigned, then it isn’t waivers but a pointless exercise that makes no sense at all…
Yes but
contracts are still contracts. Unless the Preds have released him from his contract, he is still owned by the Preds. The waiver system is a formality for dealing with players not under contract in the NHL. Radulov is under contract.
The contract is sacred. Other teams will want to enforce this. Otherwise other players might use this method to get out of their contracts. The Preds will fight to defend their rights to such a high quality player (either to play him or a trade power) and all the other teams will back the Preds. Otherwise the league takes the chance of opening a huge can of worms where any contracted UFA can get out of his contract by taking off for another league for a few months.
What you’re saying here is true BEFORE the NHL season begins, but according to the section of the CBA that Dirk listed, it’s after the NHL season begins that puts the waiver rule into effect. The reason for this as I read it is to prevent teams from hiding players overseas to circumvent the salary cap and then bringing them back over here later in the season.
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The waiver system is a formality for dealing with players not under contract in the NHL.
This is 100% incorrect.
The can of worms you refer to is also irrelevant because now the NHL and KHL respect each other’s contracts. Radulov jumped ship during a temporary window during which the NHL/KHL agreement had lapsed.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
There are other leagues
than just the KHL.And isn’t the KHL deal only one year (at least that is)? And everyone knows the Preds aren’t hiding Radulov. How far fetched would it be for a player to play a few games in some weird little league just to jump ship to another team? What happens when the KHL doesn’t have a non-compete agreement with the NHL? Can-of-worms….
As Nabokov found out last season, that’s a dicey thing in trying to find greener pastures by doing what you stated above. Would a player doing what you suggest here really want to get plucked off waivers by one of the worst teams in the league? Possible, I guess, if that player really hated his current team.
There doesn’t seem to be a difference made in the CBA regarding what Rads did and a team hiding a player overseas as I read the CBA, which is why the same rule would seem to apply to both cases.
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 3:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If Carson Palmer were a hockey player
I could see him doing this. Even if he went to the worst team ever this year, he’d still be free next year. That could be a much better alternative than, say, being stuck on the Bengals of the NHL for the next 5 years. And what of top rated rookie who suddenly decided he wanted to be a free agent? It’s one thing for a team being force into a trade. It’s another for a team to lose a players rights in a way never intended.
But a free agent gets to choose what teams offer he wants to accept, he can’t do that on waivers. If he’s under contract with his current team, he’ll still be under that same contract with a new team that takes him off waivers.
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 4:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So
If Preds had Radulov on for 5 more years, Rads comes back through waivers and the Oilers picked him up, they would pick up his 5 year contract? Or what if Weber, having a 1 year deal right now, decided to take off for another league before camp… then came back October 15th and went though waivers? What happens next summer when he should still be a RFA?
Whatever years are left on the contract is what the new team and player would be bound to. You can’t nullify an exsisting contract by jumping back and forth from different leagues.
In Weber’s case, I’d imagine he’d be an RFA with whatever team picked him off of waivers. Not sure how that would help him in anyway though.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 5:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm very confused by this discussion
As I understand it,
1. Every single player who goes through waivers is under contract. Otherwise, they’re a free agent.
2. “Waivers” is the process where other teams have the opportunity to claim the contract of players who have a certain amount of professional experience when those players are changing leagues.
3. When someone is brought in from overseas (like Marek Svatos was, for instance) they are brought in by the NHL club that holds their contract rights.
4. Because they are changing leagues, other NHL clubs get the opportunity to claim their services, something those clubs couldn’t do while the player played in their former league.
In other words, the Preds are not protected by the existence of Radulov’s contract with them. The wrinkle lies in the fact that the Preds have been unable to exercise their contractual rights during his excursion in the KHL. (We couldn’t call him in like St Louis did with Svatos.) The question is whether the Preds would be due some sort of remedy for that and what that remedy would be.
Am I wrong here?
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
You’re probably wrong. :p
We do have exclusive rights to Rads prior to the start of the season, just not during that brief period between the start of the KHL season and the NHL’s season. A glitch in the CBA I suppose.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 7:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wait, what? We have exclusive rights to him after the KHL season starts, as long as the NHL season hasn’t started. Right? After that there’s the open window (waivers) when any NHL club can claim his contract. I mean the KHL season has been going for a month, but as long as he comes over before Thurs, he’s ours.
Not that that’s gonna happen. The only reason I’m messing with this is that I’m bored and I don’t deal well with confusion.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
if Radulov returns to the NHL, it’s most likely he would have to honor the remaining year of his ELC — if the NHL didn’t do that, it would make their argument that it is a valid contract ridiculous…
if that happens before the start of the NHL season, he does not have to clear waivers and the Preds would have him…
if that happens after the start of the NHL season, the Preds would have to put him on waivers if they wish to have him join them, OR, and this is just speculation, the Preds could refuse to lift the suspension and block his return until next season… the argument would be because of Radulov’s own actions, the Preds would suffer even more if they lifted the suspension, since they would most likely lose him on waivers w/o any compensation
You're crediting too much power to the franshise
The Preds don’t “put him on waivers” either way. We have no control over whether or not he goes on waivers if he tries to come back after the season started, b/c that is governed by league-wide rules set out in the CBA. Logically, if the suspension is from this team, the decision to suspend or not to suspend would be limited to this team. Another team could claim his contract and put him to work. I could be wrong about that, but it would seem to me that the waiver issue and the suspension issue are completely separate.
That all assumes that the league would let him play, which they won’t if he skips out on his KHL contract. To come back while he has a valid contact over there he would have to get permission from that league and from his KHL club before he could set foot on NHL ice. But that’s the league’s mandate, not the Preds’.
And the whole point of my post was that it’s his contract—the existing contract that he ran out on once already—that gets moved around. We don’t actually own the man, just the right to his services under that contract.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
no, you simply don’t understand the waiver system in the NHL…
waivers is a process that is laid out in the CBA for teams to deal with player contracts… while the CBA requires players in the situation we are discussing to go through the process, the league itself does NOT put players on waivers, it is a team issue… for example, a team could decide not to put the player on waivers, it could decide to trade him and let another team put him on waivers… or a team could not put a player on waivers and simply pay him, but not play him…
if Radulov were to come back, the NHL certainly has a strong legal argument that he has a valid NHL contract and so there is no reason to not let him play… the NHL does NOT need the KHL or the IIHF’s permission… if the NHL were to allow him to play, there is nothing the KHL or IIHF could do… if they tried to sue in a North American court, the NHL would surely win, as it always has in the past…
once again, the NHL is far more powerful than any other hockey body in the world — this isn’t a mindless fan-based boast, it is a fact based on the economic and social realities of the hockey world — the NHL doesn’t have to behave in a way so as to not upset other organizations…
a better example
thought of a better example of a team NOT putting a player on waivers…
if a team signs a player (no longer subject to the entry draft) to his first NHL contract, he is waiver exempt for a period — however, if he had been playing in Europe he would have to clear waivers to play in the NHL… so the team does not put the player on waivers and instead sends him to the AHL which doesn’t require him to clear waivers…
see? it is NOT up to the league to put players on waivers, it just handles the administration of the process once the framework has been established
CBA requires players in the situation we are discussing to go through the process,
which is exactly what I said.
the NHL certainly has a strong legal argument that he has a valid NHL contract
the NHL has acted as if the KHL contract is valid under the agreement with the KHL and the NHL contract is suspended but not void. That would govern the interpretation of the contracts by an American court, regardless of the fact that it is an international agreement. If you think that American courts don’t uphold agreements between international parties on a regular basis, you are sadly misinformed.
Don’t act like the NHL operates in a vacuum. If this league encourages or allows a player to walk away from a contract in another league, they will have zero leverage to persuade that other league to honor NHL contracts. That’s politics rather than law, but it is a fact. If the NHL could operate with complete impunity, they would never have negotiated that agreement with the KHL. The league is technically able to allow any player to play, but they won’t do it. Bettman won’t sign off on it, the Board of Governors won’t overrule him, and the lawyers will tell them to send that player back to his club. It’s not about ability, it’s about the consequences not being worth the rewards.
Now listen. This was fun for about 24 hours, then it got annoying. Now it’s just sad. It’s time for both of us to move onto a different subject.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
But the fact that the NHL
didn’t tell the KHL to send Radulov back as part of the agreement means they let Radulov be used as a bargaining chip, and hung the Preds out to dry. I’ll take that revenue sharing now, thank you.
All of that logic applies only after the start of the NHL Regular Season. If Radulov were to show up tomorrow morning and express his desire to play for the Preds, waivers would not apply, and he would be bound by the remaining year on his current contract.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
That part I did get, haha. Just not the idea that the Preds could decide either to “put him on waivers” or not to. I don’t think that’s correct. The terms of the CBA dictate that, not the Preds, as I understand it.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
You’re confusing everyone now, CA. :p
I shouldn’t have used the word “brief” previously, it’s either Rads comes over here before the NHL season starts or he has to go thru waivers. Though I thought the two leagues had a non-poaching agreement in place, so I’m not sure the NHL would allow him to come over here this season anyway.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 9:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Why not?
The NHL wouldn’t be poaching him, just allowing him to fulfill his NHL contract that is already in place. A new contract might be out for the moment though.
No GB is right on that. Bettman won’t let him skip out on his KHL contract b/c the only leverage we have with the KHL is that we’ll enforce that rule. It starts a bidding war otherwise. And there would also be legal ramifications. Someone sues someone else, and we’re all in court for the next 10 years. He’ll either have to wait until he’s no longer under contract over there or get permission from the KHL and his KHL club.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
So Radulov os the sacrificial lamb.
The league really owes the Preds on this one.
Otherwise his NHL contract should be just as legit as his KHL contract, and his KHL contract as non-legit as his NHL contract.
The agreement to honor each other’s contracts went into effect like a couple of days after Rads signed in the KHL, so yeah, we got screwed.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
YOu have to wonder if there was something underhanded there
As if the league planned on giving the KHL Radulov in exchange for the noncompete agreement.
Radulov is an unusual case in that he has two “valid” contracts… pretty sure that is no longer possible… though if Radulov returns to the NHL, that does not necessarily mean he is in violation of his KHL deal, it may contain an NHL out-clause…
regardless, the NHL is the most powerful body in the hockey world, it can, and often does, whatever it wants… if it wanted to “poach” players it could and there is nothing the other leagues could do about it — in fact, the European leagues argued the NHL was doing virtually just that under the old Player Transfer Agreement which is why they (eventually) all withdrew from new agreements…
it is no longer possible for an NHLer with a valid contract to jump to a European league because the IIHF has put in place better controls — all in-coming players require an International Transfer Card, which the IIHF would not sign if the NHL filed a protest via Hockey Canada or USA Hockey…
it may contain an NHL out-clause…
It doesn’t. This was stated clearly the other day by his agent and the GM of the Ufa club, (from which he may have already been traded.)
The NHL cannot “poach” players b/c there are legal ramifications to that. We have a valid agreement with another body, who can sue in American or Canadian courts if we violate it. It would be expensive, and the NHL would lose. At that point we also lose all the leverage we have with other leagues to get them to honor our contracts. The NHL “can” poach players from other leagues, but that’s in the same sense that you “can” rob a bank. It’s against the rules, the chances of getting away without facing the consequences are extremely slim, and the consequences are not pretty.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
But in this case
would they not be poaching him, since they already have a legal contract? In this case it seems the contracts aren’t about his exclusive worldwide rights but rather his league rights, rights in NHL and rights in KHL, and of course money to be paid.
The NHL agreed to honor all KHL contracts.
Radulov’s contract there is valid according to both leagues, and it is exclusive as are all professional athletes’s contracts. Encouraging or allowing Radulov or any other player to break a contract with a KHL club is in violation of that agreement. If we expect them to honor our contracts we have to honor theirs. We cannot do to them what they did to us and say we’re even. Bettman is annoying but he’s not dumb enough to open that door.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Rad's KHL contract
should come with an asterisk.
After all
Rad’s KHL contract was signed before the agreement, just as his NHL contract was. Does the KHL honor Rad’s NHL contract?
It would appear not. ;)
He’s not coming back here, time to move on……..
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 3, 2011 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yup
But it’s the principle of the thing (and the possible value of his NHL rights)…So I say, next time a fan of team of Rich Team X goes on about how it’s unfair the Preds get “free money” from other teams in the league, we remind them how we saved them from losing their star player to the KHL :)
The NHL cannot "poach" players b/c there are legal ramifications to that. We have a valid agreement with another body…
no there isn’t… there is a "Memorandum of Understanding " to honor each other’s contracts which basically said they agree to play nice with each other and set up some processes to prevent future problems — but there is nothing legally binding about it…
who can sue in American or Canadian courts if we violate it. It would be expensive, and the NHL would lose. At that point we also lose all the leverage we have with other leagues to get them to honor our contracts.
the KHL would not win in North American courts… differences in contract law would allow the NHL to win in North America and the KHL in Russia, but the judgements are virtually unenforceable in the other country… experience has shown this to be the case…
The NHL "can" poach players from other leagues, but that’s in the same sense that you "can" rob a bank. It’s against the rules, the chances of getting away without facing the consequences are extremely slim, and the consequences are not pretty
you say that as if there is an equal relationship between the NHL and the rest of the hockey world, including the IIHF… there isn’t — the NHL is the 800 lb gorilla in this relationship and it can and will do whatever it wants if push comes to shove…
read the comments by Dmitry Chesnokov — he has a legal background btw… the last comment in particular
just one point
the NHL season starts Thursday, October 6, not Friday, October 7…
it would be unfair to immediately apply this rule to teams that play opening night but not to teams with later opening nights…
Just found this item in the CBA
According to the CBA 9.1.d.iii, “In the event a Player ceases to render his playing services called for under his SPC (except as a result of injury, illness or disability) during such period that he is in the Entry Level System, then during such non-playing period, the Player’s number of years in the Entry Level System shall be extended for a period equal to the remaining unfulfilled portion of his SPC.”
This appears to be what the Preds used to suspend Rad’s contract. Unfortunately, it appears the CBA was thinking of a player hold-out scenario.
It could be argued that Rad’s years in the KHL were done to circumvent the CBA salary and free agency restrictions. The penalty appears to be a fine. I suspect the new CBA will have a Radulov rule to create/clarify penalties in this situation. I don’t know if the NHLPA would go for it, but I would like the new CBA to tack on a year of eligibility for every year the player is in violation of his contract. Otherwise, a player in Rad’s situation can be rewarded with UFA status by growing older.
Well it doesn't matter for now. Looks like Ufa traded Radulov (probably to SKA St. Petersburg)
Dima_Erykalov Дима Ерыкалов
Volodya Bakulin, Corresponding Ch.kom in Ufa, said that Radulov traded today …
And thus ends this seasons edition of “As the Radulov turns”. Tune back in next summer for a brand new season of shows! :D
Belarussians play better as a family.......get AK46!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 1:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
It is a soap opera
its just freaking exhausting to think about.
If he comes back, great. Trade him, because we don’t need some pretty boy (remember the music video?) hot shot Russian coming in thinking his $h!t doesn’t stink. To me, he made his decision loud and clear when he jumped ship and went to the KHL.
Just like the Weber situation, talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words.
by Preds of State on Oct 2, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I posted this elsewhere, but...
It’s like high school all over again. People, he’s not gonna ask you to the prom, and even if he did, he’d abandon you to make out with some slut in the coat closet and then leave you to find your own ride home.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Part Predator, part Lightning.
We would have after the 3 year entry level courtship was over. :D
If he can’t stay true before the wedding, then you don’t wanna marry him anyway. :)
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 2, 2011 8:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
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