Predators 2, Flames 0: Back on Track
The Nashville Predators got back in the win column this afternoon against the Calgary Flames, winning 2-0 at the Scotiabank Saddledome. There were more than a few rough patches, such as posting a donut on the power play, or only registering 14 shots to the Flames' 33, but Pekka Rinne earned the shutout, and Niclas Bergfors' first goal with the team was also the winner.
More thoughts after the jump.
Ten thoughts on this afternoon's game:
- For all the talk about improved play after Edmonton and Vancouver, the Predators came out of the gate sluggishly. They finished the first period with more icings than shots (3), found themselves trapped in their own zone for extended periods, and showed no life whatsoever on their lone power play opportunity in the first frame.
- Despite Brian McGrattan registering an assist, I'm still at a loss regarding his presence on the team. He took a horrible penalty deep in Calgary's end early on, and shows little to no offensive or defensive acumen. Furthermore, his supposed "physicality" has yet to be seen, and there are multiple players in the system who can provide a better all around game.
- On the other hand, it was encouraging to see Niclas Bergfors get his first goal as a Predator, despite Jack Hillen banking the puck in off Bergfors' chest. It may not rescue him from the 4th line, but sometimes it only takes one to get the momentum going, perhaps similar to Sergei Kostitsyn's renaissance early last year.
- Back to the power play - through two games, Nashville was 3/7 (not to mention a phenomenal showing during the preseason), and there was hope that change had finally arrived. Certainly, missing Mike Fisher, Martin Erat, and Cal O`Reilly doesn't help, but it appears that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
- On a more positive note, the Preds had far fewer defensive gaffes this afternoon than Thursday night in Vancouver. Jonathon Blum and Kevin Klein were much improved, while Jack Hillen provided a significant upgrade over Mattias Ekholm in Nashville's end.
- We wondered last season if there were any more superlatives available with which to describe Pekka Rinne, and it appears that quest will continue. Shaky at times against the Canucks, Rinne returned to his steady demeanor, and the Flames never truly had an excellent scoring chance, in part due to the improved defense, but so too because Rinne controlled the game extremely well.
- Not only was today's victory Rinne's first ever against the Flames, but his 21st career shutout tied him with Tomas Vokoun for the franchise record.
- Jordin Tootoo delivered a fantastic performance during the 2010-11 playoffs, but there was question as to whether or not he could carry it over into the following year. So far, so good, as Tootoo is all over the ice impacting play with physicality and energy, while at the same time managing to stay disciplined.
- It isn't often that a Nashville odd man rush ends in a goal. Early in the first, Matt Halischuk opted for a drop pass instead of a shot, and the puck went wide. In the third, however, Craig Smith and Sergei Kostitsyn broke in on goal. I'm not entirely sure what happened next, because it appeared that Smith was shot out of a cannon. Smith blew past Olli Jokinen and Jay Bouwmeester, and fired a last second pass for Kostitsyn to tap in. In a season that has started inconsistently, it's refreshing to see Nashville's top forward prospect live up to his hype early on.
- Yes, the performance was inconsistent, and there were still too few shots, but this one goes in the win column just like any other. Tuesday against San Jose will be a good measuring stick for whether or not the Preds can keep the momentum going.
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Like I said on the GDT, there was improvement. It wasn’t the kind of hockey that will win lots of games but there were things that we did better than we did over the last several games. If nothing else, Shea didn’t take a single penalty and there was a bit less of the Keystone Kops routine.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Back on track? My backside!
We rope-a-doped our way to 2pts in this game. If not for Rinne being especially sharp during that first 15mins of the 1st period, it could have (and probably should have) been 2-0 Flames. 14 SOG is ridiculous against a team like Calgary. I’m getting closer to SWFP’s position regarding Trotz. Play like this and you’ll be lucky to win one out of four games.
This game also confirms why I didn’t pick the Flames to make the playoffs. Lots of zone control and puck movement, but it often doesn’t amount to much. I see them making some moves sooner than later (keep in touch with them, DP).
But it’s a win, so we can all go “whee”!
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 7:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The truth will set you free, old friend.
And ain’t it funny how we win when Smith plays significant minutes and we lose when he doesn’t? I predict that he’ll play 6 minutes next game.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Oct 22, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m surprised that Trotz didn’t bench Smith after the penalty he took in the 3rd period. Maybe he realizes that his other options for the Legwand/Wilson line aren’t all that appealing.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 8:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought the same thing....
….didn’t he take 2 penalties? But I was thinking that hook was the kiss of death for Smith. Good thing he had the breakaway play to make up for it.
LOL…good offense never makes up for….whatever it is that Smith did.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Oct 22, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris Burton coming after McGrattan
Were you this ouraged when Shea took absolutely stupid penalties ( Yes that is plural ) last game?
Calgary has no one that would go with Brian, but yet he has more minutes than the guy who scores the first goal for the Preds. Care to guess why?
O’Reilly, Erat, Fisher, Cubes are injury scratches again.
Why is this so hard for people to understand why BMG is suiting up?
He should have been a scratch today. Aginst Calgary, I have no problem with that.
His 6 + minutes and his penalty wasn’t the problem in a 2-0 WIN.
The problem is getting outshot 33-14 and eeking this one out.
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
+1 on your last sentence.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 7:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
But thats the point. If nobody will go with him, or he should be a scratch, why is he even here? Why not Bourque, Thang, Stortini, or Mueller?
Lemme quote the late, great Colonel Sanders. He said "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken."
by Chris Burton on Oct 22, 2011 8:17 PM EDT via iPhone app up reply actions
I’m with ya, CB. Have no idea why McFattan is even part of this team. DP should have been looking for offensive help and instead he scrounged around the enforcer bargain bin. I’m very happy with the win, but not sold on this team yet.
Hockey Fights Cancer and so do I
Join me at
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A win is a win...
unfortunately, this nagging problem of being continually outshout by an almost 2 to 1 ratio exists, and if the defense isn’t up to the task, it will be a long night for the goalie.
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
Canucks get Booth from Panthers for Samualsson and Sturm.....
Nucks got Reinprecht and a 3rd round pick as well. Booth would have looked pretty good here, IMO.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 7:57 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I know we are hurt but it baffles me that matt halischuck is playing on our “top” line.
by Joel Ward is my Homeboy on Oct 22, 2011 8:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I agree
That’s a recipe for……..not being able to score.
Interestingly though, Trotz insists on playing Wilson and Legwand together on the top line with…….whomever. That’s the only smart thing I’ve seen out of him so far this year.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Oct 22, 2011 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think there's a clearer expression of this team's problems
than Halischuk playing on the top line over Bergfors, Smith, Kostitsyn, Hornqvist, etc.
My reaction when he came out with the top power play unit:

About Tootoo
With all the good he’s done and the energy he’s brought to the team, Toots was responsible for a staggering number of turnovers in the defensive zone. There were sequences when he would turn the puck over, the Preds would recover, and Toots would turn it over again. Each time it was when he was trying to break out of the zone. Some of the best Flames scoring chances were a result of Tootoo’s turnovers.
Puck And Punk blog: The only music with enough heart for hockey.
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not saying he needs to be benched, but there’s the criticism to line up next to the praise.
Puck And Punk blog: The only music with enough heart for hockey.
Follow me on twitter:@3DLink
this win hasn’t made me feel better at all! we still sucked out there. There was a little bit more hustle, but we still sucked against a team that sucks… and they out shot us. We don’t have any major time in our offensive zone. This was just like our first two wins, lucky.
60% of the time it works every time
I know! None of these people are getting any of my cookies.
Those are for people who can see the positives. We got two points. We did some things better in this game than in the previous games. Craig Smith had a good game. Shea took no penalties. In fact we didn’t take nearly as many as we had been taking. These things are good things and are, frankly, cookie-worthy.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Who needs your pollyanna cookies anyway! :p
We got two points we didn’t deserve. 14 SOG against an average team at best like Calgary is embarrassing.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 10:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wow. You are easily embarrassed. I had fun tonight.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Your just ebullient because both Garon and Rinne had shutouts tonight. :p
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 11:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Grizzled, in no way was I satisfied with what we put out there on the ice tonight
But I saw that some of the little things were starting to improve, I definitely thought we were backchecking better than the past few games, as long as we can improve every game I think we can keep this ship afloat.
Assuming that your aiming your dribble at me, A: take a hike, and B: get lost.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 12:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Blue Jackets find another way to lose tonight.......
They blew a 3-2 lead with under a minute left in the 3rd and lost 4-3 in regulation! :o
Can’t imagine their coach will last much longer there.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 22, 2011 10:22 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I keep thinking that Dex must be going slowly insane that he can’t get in there.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Trust me,
We were doing that an awful lot last year in Ottawa. x.x
A Goal Horn Haiku
Hoooonk hoooonk honk honk hooooonk
That's the sound the train horn makes
Suck it, Toronto
Well, let’s see, I’ve played hockey for over 30 years, so if you can guess how old I was when I started playing, then you’ll have your answer!
Can you even stand on skates?
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 12:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Were you 43?
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
May your cookies stay just a few minutes to long in the oven. :p
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 1:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I didn't see the game,
looks like a pretty poor offensive effort.
I will take the 2 points with the guys we had out any day.
14 SOG is pitiful.
Beer... Now there's a temporary solution.-Homer Simpson
I didn't read the game thread comments, but...
Blum’s save was awesome!
Beer... Now there's a temporary solution.-Homer Simpson
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it...
But Blum had an AMAZING save after the puck slid across the crease behind Rinne. At about 2:45 in the video. They say he hit the post in the video, but watching the Fox Sports feed they replayed it and he made a spectacular save to keep it from being 1-1.
There was also one by Klein earlier in the game. Less spectacular, but he was there when he needed to be.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
And the reason no one has mentioned it is because there are a lot of people who are afraid to believe that we might actually be good over the course of the season. If they believe and we aren’t good, their souls will be crushed beneath the weight.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
And you get a cookie!
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
You may have a cookie, too!
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I believe I will have a cookie
regardless of what I believe about the Predators.
look up ^
I mentioned it! It is one of the featured highlights on NHL.com. I think Pekka owes someone dinner.
Of course, the whole team should owe him dinner every night!
Beer... Now there's a temporary solution.-Homer Simpson
And actually, Blum didn’t pay for dinner for the whole of training camp. Then he had a bad two weeks in the regular season. He might not want someone to pay for his dinner for a while.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Ouchtown! population us, bro!
This isn’t rotisserie hockey. You don’t save shots on goal for later in the season!
SHOOT THE EFFING PUCK!
by djzielin on Oct 23, 2011 3:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Smith gets point = Preds Win?
Odd but true.. Am I corrrect.
Smith scores a goal in first 2 games. Preds win.
Smith held pointless in next 4.. Preds lose
Smith gets a point. Preds win.
It is hoped and prayed that Trotz sees the light and plays Smith. The problem is we already got spoiled by our awesome play of last year, then Poile decides he can’t afford the big boys so he gets rid of them, then he decides he’s going with the kids, only he didn’t think about just how ‘kids’ they are, then our top three aren’t playing, our captain got penalty happy in one game that helped us lose it early, and so here we are, making positives out of anything we can. I suppose there is light at the end of the tunnel, but I’ll feel much better about it if we can play well against a good team.
"I am you, you are me, and we are all together" Beatles
by amyinsparta on Oct 23, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
There's something to the idea that we had some kind of "hangover" from last season.
I think the fans and the players kind of expected the team to play the way they played at the end of the year, and ignored the facts that a) they are a different team now and b) they hadn’t played together for four months. The preseason didn’t help people realize those things.This is the beginning of the process, not the end of it like it is in April and May.
For me the question is more when will we play well than it is if we’ll play well.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
a) they are a different team now and b) they hadn’t played together for four months.
Are those factors any more relevant to the Preds than other teams in the league?
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
They could be. Some teams expected more continuity than others did.
But actually my point is more about how people understand their experiences than whether those particular factors are absent from others’ experiences. We thought of the team as “building on” last season, but there’s actually a lot of little things to work on—memory, timing, communication, etc. When the players forget that, they don’t play as well because they aren’t paying attention to them. When the fans forget that, they get anxious and fretful.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Owned by Dirk on that one. :D
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 6:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well, no actually. We’re talking about two different things. Dirk’s talking (presumably) about comparative data. I’m talking about paradigmatic thinking. And I really read his comment as an opening to a discussion rather than a “smack-down” like you and I get into. (Not that we’re hostile, but we get …..competitive? or something.)
Anyway. I keep trying to make this short and non-lecture-y and I just can’t see any way to do that. I’m saying that we set up a paradigm that we were stepping into the same spot we left at the end of May, a presumption that there was continuity between last season and this one. When a player expects a certain result when he does X, Y, or Z, and that expectation is fulfilled it reinforces his understanding of what’s going on. So he isn’t going to work on those little things that his underlying explanatory structure assumes are already there. It’s not until the data is so incompatible with his paradigm that he “gets” that he has to adjust his understanding of what’s going on. It wasn’t until the little things caught up with us that we “got” that we aren’t just picking up where we left off.
is this relevant to other teams in the league? Well, that depends on what they understood about their offseason. Did they see themselves as a different team that needed to start over and rebuild the fundamental structures of team play—systems, communication, and timing, for instance—or did they see themselves as picking up where they left off? In other words, relevance is determined by how people understood the changes that took place than it is by the fact that changes took place.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Somehow I can see you taking someone’s order of chicken McNuggets and asking them “sure, you want the nuggets, but how does this make you feel?”. :D
But seriously, we can make this stuff far more complicated than need be. We, whether by design or by inability to acquire the needed help from outside the organization, have way to many young players in the lineup trying to take on roles they’re not ready for. This almost always leads to bad results. It’s one thing if you have top tier youngsters like the Oilers and Avalanche have, but ours are more of the 2nd tier variety (Smith could be more than that, we shall see).
In reality, we only have a few players here who haven’t played under the Trotz system (I’ll leave that term open for various interpretations, LOL!), so the familarity with the system isn’t the problem. Having to take on roles above their current ability levels is the big problem as I see it.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 7:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m an academic. I make everything complicated. I’ve spent my adult life studying this kind of sh*t. It ain’t hockey but it pays the bills and keeps me off the streets.
I counter your “familiarity” hypothesis with one that says that the old hands are more susceptible to thinking they’ve already done the leg work than the newbies are. Familiarity can breed complacency. New guys go in knowing they have to learn new stuff. Old hands sometimes go in thinking they remember stuff very well, when, in fact, they really need a review.
By the way, I’m not offering a unified theory of everything here. I’m asserting that this helps to explain why it was so hard to get onto the same page when things started going wrong. (I also think it applies to some fans who keep talking about “momentum.”) There very likely are some rookies in over their heads. That doesn’t wholly explain the others’ problems.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I was in the middle of writing a long repsonse, but I can sum it up more briefly. What I said prior to the season starting is that when players know what their role is on their team, and this can apply in any business as well, they can perform at their best. What I see with the Preds is a team where many of the forwards aren’t sure what their role is right now. That should have been hammered out in pre-season.
I know I’m repetitive about this, but the addition of a true top 6 forward would alleviate much of this problem. Halischuk could go back to being the good 4th liner that he can be, Spaling can go back to that line as well and so on. That’s my unified theory. :)
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 9:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mm-hmm…..see you’re trying to fix something you have no control over and I’m trying to understand something I have little direct knowledge of. We’re both just basically spinning our wheels. I gotta go feed the cat.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
gotta agree with grittle bear on this one
team doesn’t have the talent, period. Familiarity, complacency, etc. mostly just strike me as ways of explaining away the plain truth.
I’ve been grittled I see, LOL! :D
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 23, 2011 11:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Because Geoffrion, Hornqvist, Kostitsyn, Legwand, O’Reilly, Smithson, Tootoo, Wilson, Blum, Klein, Suter, and Weber all got bad during the offseason. All crap now. Everything they accomplished in the spring and aren’t accomplishing now just… “poof”…gone because we “don’t have the talent, period.”
You can pretend that anything you can’t count doesn’t exist, but that strikes me as a way of avoiding the fact that life is complex.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Those players didn't get bad
they just got pushed into bigger roles because several players left.
And if you’re accusing me of being a st4t n3rd, I can only tell you that I love the complexity of hockey, but believe that talent and luck paint the big picture, not intangibles. I’m not trying to put all of hockey into a box, just diagnose the current disorder with Occam’s razor in mind.
“Talent” and “role” are pretty squishy as analytical categories go, Sam. I’m saying that you are being dismissive of a whole way of thinking about how people move through the world and how people make decisions, and you’re doing so in the name of some kind of objective truth. I’m saying that you can’t explain every problem this team has by lack of “talent.”
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Yeah, well I can explain it :p
Truth be told, we weren’t that talented last season, but we won a lot of one goal games due to a veteran roster that did just enough to pull out those games. Take away all those vets and replace them with rookies who haven’t had to take on that much responsibility before and those one goal wins become losses. It’s not that complicated a thing, IMO.
Not saying we could have or even should have kept all those vets we lost this off-season, but throwing a bunch of rookies into those roles is a risky business, let alone not adding the offensive boost that we needed up front.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 24, 2011 12:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You do understand, don’t you, that you can repeat the words “talent” and “role” over and over and it doesn’t make them any more objective or concrete or explanatory than other potential categories? It doesn’t make them any less squishy and ephemeral. There are a lot of things that those categories don’t explain, especially since you are also trying to argue that talent-level and role-type stay true across time (“this guy is a 30-point guy, that guy is a grinder.”) You cannot simply exclude all other factors from your explanation and say that that’s the objective truth of the matter. Well, you can, in the sense that you are able to do it. But it’s a vast oversimplification of human reality to do so. All I’m doing is saying that your analysis explains one thing and my analysis explains another thing and both those things exist and affect performance at the same time.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Sorry, I have to agree with the grittlemonster there....
It’s not that the team lost star players, but they lost the veteran players who know what they needed to do to win games (i.e a Goc, a Ward, an SOB) and replaced them with young inexperienced players…. which in turn makes the stars of this team (i.e. Suter, Weber, Rinne and… ummmm … Leg… Le….. Legw…. #11) to do EXTRA to cover for the mistakes of the youth. And quite frankly, we have way too much youth.
Then couple that with the injuries….
Once again, the lack of a forward doesn’t make Shea Weber miss the net and take bad penalties over a more or less extended period of time unless there’s an additional dynamic involved as well. Like maybe how he thinks about what he’s supposed to be doing. The loss of Goc isn’t going to lead to turnovers unless there’s something different from the way the team played with him in the lineup.
You guys keep saying its “talent” but you use that word to mean fourteen different things. I’m saying it’s lack of communication or not putting forth the same level of effort or forgetting where you’re supposed to be or not having the same level of awareness of where your linemates are as you think you do. Are those things correlated with veteran status? Sometimes, except when they aren’t and your veterans are making those mistakes too.
And if I may quote myself on this: “There very likely are some rookies in over their heads. That doesn’t wholly explain the others’ problems…your analysis explains one thing and my analysis explains another thing and both those things exist and affect performance at the same time.”
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
There's nothing squishy about "talent" and "role" definitions.
Without those catagories, a coach couldn’t make a decision as to who to play where. Last season, Trotz used guys like Ward and Goc in roles they excelled at because he knew what kind of players they were. That clearly hasn’t been the case with their replacements so far.
That issue, coupled with an unfilled need for additional scoring talent, is why we’re having the problems we’ve had so far. Maybe the kids will grow into some of these roles, but if and when is uncertain.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 24, 2011 11:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So define them, define them in a way that they don’t slide all over the place when you try to use them.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
that's a problem
every forward on the Predators is pretty much the same player.
Joel Ward’s role, for instance, was huge and easily observable: Second-line scoring, first-line checking, second-line PK and second-line PP.
He took the toughest match-ups and the second most defensive-zone faceoffs (besides Smithson). And he contributed offensively, in spite of all that defensive responsibility.
Trotz has started using Halischuk in exactly that role and it remains to be seen if he’s up for it (I have my doubts).
And moving Halischuk into that role, moves everyone else up the depth chart. Last season, Halischuk was a second-tier checker, who drew moderately difficult match-ups. Now Geoffrion has that role.
I wrote a long definition of what “talent” and “role” mean, only to lose it in cyber space ($%#@!). But to give an example, Halischuk lacks the skill (talent) to take on top line duties (role). Even a novice fan can see that. So could they see that we don’t have a physical presence like Obie on either of our 2nd or 3rd Dman pairings. The same goes for those trying to replace Ward and Goc.
That’s not to say these kids can’t find their own niche in which to help the team, but it clearly hasn’t happened yet, with Smith at times being an exception.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 24, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is
1, an appositive not a definition
2. unclear as to how talent (as yet undefined) is teased out from role since the only way to see talent is through a player’s role
3. in no way incompatible with the idea that communication, familiarity, and decision-making play a role in performance
4. not any more objective than any concept I have proposed
and
5. a prime example of paradigmatic thinking,
That’s the short version. We’re running out of room here.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
What's the meaning of the word "is"?
That’s basically where you’ve put this discussion (if it can be called that, LOL!). If a coach had to put himself thru the mental hula hoops you’re suggesting here, he might never decide what to do! It’s not nearly as complex a process as you’re making it out to be. That you don’t want to accept anyone’s definitions here of what talent is or what a role is doesn’t negate the validity of those definitions. They’re definitions of what coaches use to determine who plays where all the time.
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 25, 2011 1:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m not a coach and neither are you.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I think you're being really pedantic
Is the Predators’ lack of talent the sole reason they’ve not played well? Maybe not—line chemistry, growing pains, underperformance are all possible explanations this early in the season.
And yes we will never know a player’s “true talent” exactly at any one moment. Nor will we ever be able to totally distinguish his “true talent” from his role on the team.
But we can come pretty close to estimating both—close enough to pretty plainly see that the Predators are suffering from inferior talent having to take on increased roles.
You can try to pick away at the “paradigmatic thinking” of our arguments all you want, but I don’t think you’re doing well to disuade anyone that this team’s primary problem right now is a bunch of fourth liners playing second line minutes.
Yeah that's why I said SOB...
… who wasn’t a forward last time I looked.
Now Weber has to be the thumper of a defenseman to make up for the Blum and Ekholm (until now) as replacements.
We're in a feedback loop here.
Weber “has to do” X, Y, and Z because he sees the need to do X, Y, and Z. He sees that need because he understands the situation in a certain way and because he fits the information he receives into an existing paradigm…..blah, blah, blah…..I’m tired of saying the same thing over and over and no one hearing what I’m saying. You go ahead and pretend to be objective and explain everything by explaining nothing and I’ll go wallow in my frustrated subjectivity somewhere else.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
He's supposed to be doing X Y & Z
but is also forced to do part of A B & C because the kids can’t do all of A B & C on their own.
Do you want me to draw a Venn diagram or something?
plus
you’re just a silly girl. what do you know? :P
So true. :D
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 24, 2011 6:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
CAustin ...
… must have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express or something.
batman and robin
time to offensively step up. klein is arguably our top defenseman. he’s tied with suter for points and he again is tops on pk toi. klein’s turnovers do worry me though.
I know this has quickly become another polarizing issue (much like the Leggy argument), but I think other people will agree with me here: I would take Weber and Suter over Klein any day. Maybe they haven’t been playing 100% the last few games, but…. Klein, arguably, as the top defenseman? Even currently, with how W&S are playing (which isn’t awful), I feel more comfortable with either of them on the ice than Klein. And he’s tied for points, sure, but history suggests that he ain’t gonna be getting too many more. But hey, maybe he will be better this year. More points for us would be great, I won’t complain!
Hands go uuppp..... AND THEY STAY THERE!
-nashvillepredators-
Is there any kind of sacrifice we can give to make it happen? roasted shark perhaps?
"I am you, you are me, and we are all together" Beatles
by amyinsparta on Oct 23, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Please!!!!!!!!!
We badly need him. Klein’s 8 turnovers to 1 takeaway have to be relegated to the 3rd line.
time to offensively step up batman and robin. klein is arguably our top defenseman. he’s tied with suter for points and he again is tops on pk toi. klein’s turnovers do worry me though.
No one scores when Weber and Suter are out there. Klein scored for Vancouver the other day. Klein is awful and always will be.
Klein is tied for fifth leading scorer…
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
AND he has no penalties.
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
I don’t care, he sucks when he is on the ice. I don’t care if he can excel at PK either. Why doesn’t he play like that all the time? I know why, because he can’t just throw the puck down the ice blindly during 5 on 5 play. When he has to actually posses the puck in the D zone, he can’t move it. He turns it over instead. He is bad. Terrible, actually. His corsi is always amongst the worst on the team. He hasn’t has a positive corsi all season in fact. Blum’s has been just as bad.
A little early for you to be so drunk. Does anyone on the team right now have a positive Corsi?
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
Drunk or not, Klein still sucks.
At least some have had games where they are positive. Klein has had zero.ZILCH!
I hate Klein as much as anyone, but (and it pains me to say this…. DEEEP BREATH…) I have come to have a BIT more respect for him so far this year. Yes, he has made some egregious mistakes, and yes he was -3 one night, and yes he turns the puck over a lot, but I do have to admit that it feels like he has improved from last year.
Hands go uuppp..... AND THEY STAY THERE!
-nashvillepredators-
I agree
I can’t hate on Klein as much as I used to when he was paired with Hamhuis. Klein is much improved today.
Klein is 130th on the list of defensemen sorted by salary. Almost exactly halfway down the list of all Dmen pulling a paycheck. He is above average in play. Perhaps not greatly, but still above average.
Vs. Oilers, Klein had better Corsi than Suter.
Did I mention that he hasn’t taken any penalties, like your boys Webs and Suter?
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
Klein and Blum have blocked 42 shots in 7 games. Blum is second in the NHL with 25.
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
You know how I feel about that stat. Maybe if Klein hadn’t been trying to block that shot against Vancouver he wouldn’t have scored an own goal. Oh yeah, that own goal negates his one goal.
That wasn’t a ‘game loser’. Look to Weber and Suter for issues in that game.
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
Klein and Blum
are playing almost 22 minutes per game. at a fraction of the payday of Sutes and Webs. Klein averages 46 seconds more per game Shorthanded than Weber, and 3:29 per game less on the PP. But Klein is leading Weber in points. Despite the fact that he plays more defensive hockey. Hmmm…. I like Weber, but I expect more of him than from Klein for the size of the paycheck. Suter also gets at least 3 minutes more on the PP than Klein. Not saying Klein should be playing Suter’s PP time, but…. WTF, I just realized that I’m talking about evidence, not impressions… and I can’t change your impression, just state my position. I like Klein, I’m glad the team management and coaches do too.
by Only Fan In J.C. ? on Oct 25, 2011 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
You want six webers on the team. You can’t pay $45M for your defense, not including Pekka.
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
Why are Weber and Suter to blame? Klein was out there for the 1st goal, scored their 2nd goal and pinched and missed the puck on their 4th goal leading to a 2 on 1. Tell me why they were to blame, please.
First goal, not Klein’s fault. Perhaps it was Pekka’s fault for failing to seal off the post. Klein tries to swat the puck away and it either Blum or Geoffrion knock it back to Sedin. Klein was out there for the Preds first goal, according to your ‘theory’, our goal should be credited to him.
On the 2nd goal, a powerplay goal, Blum should have cleared out the man in front of the net, but, regardless, whomever gets penalized should be blamed if a goal is scored on the ensuing power play. Therefore, Hornquist is to blame. I would like to point out that Klein stayed to the left of Pekka’s sightline so that he could still see the shot, something Klein does well and often.
Goal 3, possible that the pinch was ill-Advised, but it looks like SK hits the puck over Klein’s stick and into the neutral zone.
Goal 5, Klein is out on the ice again, surprised you didn’t mention that…Oh, yeah, it is a 5-on-3 because your wonder twins were both sitting in the box.
World Wide Weber.
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
How did i miss this?
130th? Seriously? This is an argument for Klein?
There are 30 teams in the league, so therefore 120 top 4 defenseman.
Basically, this is saying Klein is an upper echelon defenseman on a 3rd pairing.
Woohoo!
Maybe I would be ok with him on the 3rd pairing, but at 22 minutes on a team that can’t get the puck going the other way and his pairing being amongst the worst in corsi every night, it isn’t going to cut it. Preds need to do better, or it will be a long season.
Glencross' Elbow to Rinne
I was at the game yesterday and Glencross did some pretty dirty things, but did anybody see (on TV) him elbow Rinne in the head near the end of the game? I couldn’t see how bad it was, but it definitely was uncalled for. Klein gave him a little bit of a workover afterward.
I missed that. Is there video?
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Sam, it's not a choice between "talent" or "familiarity"
I never presented an either-or situation. You did. You chose to dismiss out of hand a well-established psychological theory (supported by many, many studies) about how individuals think and make decisions and how we process our world. You did so by claiming that “familiarity” and “complacency” mask reality and objective truth and by making an implicit claim that “talent” was some sort of unchanging and “real” thing waiting to be uncovered in the data. You made a claim that your conclusions were better than mine because they were more objective.
I am challenging you to show that what you dismissed as not happening actually isn’t happening . I am challenging you to live up to your claim of objectivity and intellectual rigor. I am challenging you to define the terms on which you made those claims. But it seems like you either can’t articulate or don’t know what it is you are trying to measure. How can you measure something if you can’t figure out what it is? You are telling yourself you’re being objective and I’m indulging in subjectivity, but that’s not true. We are both being subjective. You challenged me to think about what I was proposing, and I am challenging you to think about what you are proposing.
If you want to be intellectually rigorous about this, think about how to define your terms and then stick to that definition. Make sure you know what is to be used as a standard and what is to be descriptive. Stop using the same damn word to mean whatever you want it to at that particular moment and stop using any it interchangeably with other words like “skill” or “role”.
And just acknowledge that even if you don’t like the questions I ask it doesn’t mean that you already have all the answers
Btw, paradigmatic thinking isn’t bad, it just is. That concept is simply a way of understanding human beings’ pattern-making intelligence.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I am challenging you to show that what you dismissed as not happening actually isn’t happening.
You want me to prove a negative? How about instead I make a post this week attempting to prove how insufficient skill in certain roles is a problem?
And I’ll readily admit that there’s your explanations could be true also. I’m not denying them outright, I’m just very suspicious of psychological explanations for sport performances.
Yes, I want you you back up the assertion you made in your first comment on the topic.
Familiarity, complacency, etc. mostly just strike me as ways of explaining away the plain truth.
And I’m equally suspicious that your stats get to the heart of what happens on the ice. But suspicions should not lead to a refusal to consider. We’re looking at the same thing; we’re just looking at it with different questions in mind. It’s pretty arrogant to assume that I am being obtuse and you are being clear-headed because of that difference.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I will say that there is something to the “paradigmatic thinking” line, in that if fans or players came into this season riding the buzz of the playoff win over Anaheim, they were ignoring the rest of the picture, like how they were completely shut down offensively vs. Vancouver, or the fact that puck luck had a lot to do with the success of the rookies late in the year.
Of course, when it comes to the players, determining whether or not this is a factor in recent play would require crawling into their heads – good luck with that. It’s much easier to point to the rather obvious conclusion that this team is loaded with too many kids, many of whom (Geoffrion, Blum, Halischuk and Spaling) got creamed on the shot clock last year, too.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
Well, that’s why psychologists and philosophers use the language they do. They know that individuals are complex and that they’re making suppositions about what’s going on. They know that the act of trying to get someone to communicate their thought process effects changes in that thought process. But they’ve accounted for that in a way that “hard science” people don’t feel the same urgency to do.
You linked to an article about the fallacy of confidence the other day. One of the observations the author made is that when faced with a difficult question, many times people will answer an easier question without even realizing it. Just because the “easy” answer is “it’s all about the rookies” that doesn’t make it the only thing that’s going on.
And I would challenge anyone who would argue that decision making by a player on and off the ice is irrelevant to on-ice performance to back that assumption up.
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
It’s not just an easy answer, it’s one that’s build upon a pretty reliable foundation of last season’s performance by these players, and trends which have been documented around the league for several years now. There is tangible evidence to consider there.
The paradigmatic thinking argument is pure supposition on your part – it may play a role, certainly, and the coaches may be involved with setting some players straight behind closed doors, but with which guys, and to what extent does it impact team performance? We have no idea, and I don’t even know how you’d begin to quantify such things.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
I’m not trying to quantify anything, and I reject the notion that the only acceptable evidence, is quantifiable data.
And if by "pure supposition" you mean I’m pulling this out of my ass, you are incorrect. It’s not guesswork. There is plenty of evidence that human beings think in this manner and that it affects the actions they take. In terms of sheer volume, there is far more evidence for this point of view than for the idea that talent is discoverable through a numerical analysis of a player’s role.
Third, your talent argument explains some but not all of what happened over the last two weeks. My paradigm argument explains some but not all of what happened over the last two weeks. These things can work together to give depth and dimension to what we understand about the world. You are looking at outcomes to derive understanding and I am looking at processes to derive understanding. You are analyzing what has happened in the past in order to attempt to predict what might happen in the future. I am looking at how someone might understand their present and decide what action to take. We’re not at odds here.
I don’t find the talent theory wholly satisfying; I have basic questions that the talent theory as it has been presented does not adequately address. I’ve tried to articulate them, but I feel like they are being ignored. I say, are the guys communicating with each other on and off the ice? The response has been, that’s not important because we don’t have talent. I say, does Tootoo (for instance) think he knows what Smithson (for instance) is going to do when he really doesn’t know, and does that lead to turnovers? The response is, too many rookies playing over their heads. I say, what the heck is talent; give me a definition that I can work with, and I get, you’re being pedantic; those things obscure the plain truth and we can’t quantify them anyway. I would add questions like how do you know you are measuring talent rather than role since you can’t conceptually separate the two? How do struggles by both rookies and vets early in the season indicate lack of talent while overcoming those struggles later in the season not indicate presence of talent? If talent does change like that over time, how can it help to conceptualize it as something static and waiting to be discovered by role-specific data?
You can choose to address these issues or not. I, however, am getting frustrated by the fact that you’re not taking me seriously, and this is really not worth getting frustrated over. I can point you to some places to start reading about paradigms and decision-making so that you can evaluate the ideas I’ve presented for yourself if you want to. If not, then whatever….
R.I.P. Belak, Rypien, Boogaard, Lokomotiv.
Lightning Goalies--0 for 4 on the poke check in October 2011
Part Predator, part Lightning.
My point about supposition is that unless you’re close to the team itself, I don’t see how you can make that diagnosis. Now, I could see the coaches looking at individual players and correcting their attitude based on what they’re seeing up close, certainly (“yes, I know you scored a clutch goal in the playoffs but you’re a mucker, not a sniper, get over it”).
I think the two different approaches here aren’t mutually exclusive, they’re sort of macro- vs. micro-type thinking. At an arms-length distance from the team, I’m more comfortable working at the macro level.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and founder of Hockey Gear HQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment and accessories.
Considering that I’ve been bringing up the issue of our almost complete inability to generate offense against the Canucks in that playoff series and didn’t get caught up in the post playoff buzz, I guess that makes me a non-paradigmatic thinker? I’m just not sure. :D
Defense keeps you in games........offense wins them!
by Grizzledbear on Oct 26, 2011 1:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

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