Meet Me Halfway on the David Legwand Debate
Any mention of David Legwand always leads to a spirited discussion on this site, followed by an unpleasant shouting match. And I'm posting here, not to stoke those flames of controversy again, but because I think people on this site are closer to an agreement than they think.
In the never-ending debate about David Legwand there are two sides, but both groups seem to basically have the same conception of Legwand as a player. The divide stems from one group overrating him and the other underrating him, to compensate from the perceived overrating and underrating of the other side.
I often get lumped into the group of people that overrate Leggy. So let me concede a few things:
- He is overpaid.
- He is not a #1 center.
- He plays better in the playoffs than the regular season.
- He is not gritty/does not go to the "hard areas."
- He is not good with the puck on his stick/in offensive-zone possessions.
These arguments, however, completely lose me. I can't agree with any of this:
- Spaling/Goc is as good.
- He has played worse since signing his contract.
- He is an average/below-average defensive forward.
- The Predators should buy out his contract.
I have no opinion, one way or the other, of these statements:
- He is lazy.
- He was drafted second overall.
- He holds X franchise record.
- He scored 4 empty-net goals.
I explain my disagreements after the jump
Spaling/Goc is as good.
Nick Spaling and Marcel Goc are much better values than David Legwand. Too often, however, this discrepancy in value gets used as an argument about Legwand's play. Taking contracts out of the equation, Spaling scored 14 points this season; Legwand scored the inverse of those digits, 41. Yes, Legwand gets more ice-time, but Spaling gets easier match-ups, against third and fourth-line players.
Goc is closer to Legwand in talent, but falls a little short in most aspects of his game. Goc is a great #3 center to Legwand's #2. Again, the disparity in money--Goc's $775K to Leggy's $4.5M--is bigger than the disparity in talent, but that has as much to do with Goc being a great value than Legwand bad one.
And that highlights a potentially bigger problem in our Legwand discussions--Predators fans have been spoiled a bit by David Poile's ability to signs players to under-market contracts. Legwand and Erat have the two biggest contracts in team history, but they're not that big. And sometimes I think we lose sight of the league's pay-scale. Getting a player like Marcel Goc for under a million dollars is not normal.
Here are some players around the league with comparable roles to Legwand. Their cap hits and points are given:
- Shawn Horcoff--$5,500,000 // 27 P, 46 G
- Travis Zajac--$3,887,500// 44 P, 82 G
- Dave Bolland--$3,375,000// 37 P, 61 G
- Manny Malholtra--$2,500,000// 30 P, 72 G
I estimated last season that Legwand is worth $4M at most, and should probably be paid in the $3-$3.5M range. Ideally, the Predators would be paying Legwand in the neighborhood of whatever Joel Ward makes this offseason.
He has played worse since his contract
I think Legwand has been overpaid, but still is a good player. The issues seem separate to me. Some people seem to hold the contract against him, however, and that makes sense if you think he's started slacking after his payday. Some athletes clearly do ease up after they are paid. Legwand, however, has been a remarkably consistent 40-point player outside of his contract year, in which he scored 63 points.
I don't think Legwand tried harder in '06-07 because his deal was up, though. There are three three pretty obvious reasons Legwand scored 63 points, while essentially playing the same game:
1. His shooting percentage shot up to 17.6%, from his 10.6% average. Shooting percentages can change year-to-year, but there's not an improvement in the world that can take a player from Nick Spaling to Ilya Kovalchuk levels in a year. It was a sample size fluke. Lucky Leggy.
2. He had the best linemates of his career, including Paul Kariya.
3. Trotz gave the toughest defensive minutes to other players, because that roster was so deep.
And then the team was facing relocation and David Poile wanted desperately to hang onto some dependable mid-level players. Seemingly all the possible things outside of Legwand's control that could have helped him get a bigger contract happened.
He is an average/below-average defensive forward.
Then why does Trotz put him on the ice with Weber and Suter in every late and close game, in which the Predators are leading? Legwand routinely matches up with the other team's top lines and still manages to have a positive shot and goal differential, while on the ice.
While that doesn't necessarily mean Legwand would become a scoring-line stud with weaker competition, it does open up more opportunities for other players to score.
Take Mike Fisher for example. Fisher inexplicably ran cold after his trade to the Predators, before heating up just before the playoffs. What changed?
In the nine games that Fisher played against the other team's top line, he scored 1 point and was -4. In the 18 games Legwand played against the other team's top line, Fisher scored 11 points and was +7.
The Predators should buy out his contract.
Buying out a contract only makes sense if the player in question is better off not playing at all, for the same amount of money. The threshold for Legwand to avoid being bought out is to provide any more value than a Chris Mueller-type, who makes league minimum.
I'd love for the Predators to trade Legwand, replace him with Goc, and use the freed up money toward a scorer. But it's wishful thinking.
He is lazy.
I think David Legwand has one of those faces. Carlos Beltran, the Mets centerfielder, has long been ridiculed by fans and media for not caring and being lazy. Like Legwand, he's rarely emotive and often looks disinterested. Beltran's speed makes it often seem like he's gliding in the outfield. But he's probably the best centerfielder in team history, and held together many erratic flyball pitching staffs.
David Legwand is not an all-star, like Beltran. But he's got the same kind of traits that invite fans to play arm-chair psychologist--unfulfilled first-round potential; dumb, toothless mug; lack of emotions; minimal-effort skating-style.
Is David Legwand lazy? As lazy as an NHL player can be, I guess. I'm not really in the business of sitting down at my computer, taking a bite of my sandwich, and calling pro athletes lazy.
It's a non-falsifiable argument. And don't tell me his playing better in the playoffs is proof, because there's another term for that we bestow on the underpaid players--"raising his game."
Jason Arnott floated around and had a vacant look on his face, too. But he made the Predators better. And so does Legwand.
He is what he is--overpaid, but a good player. Can we at least agree on that?
156 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
This is really good stuff. And…I agree.
Lemme quote the late, great Colonel Sanders. He said "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken."
WOW!
That’s so unlike you Chris :)
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 28, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Two huge errors right off the bat
He plays better in the playoffs than the regular season
He has 22 points (10 goals) in 37 games in the playoffs. Better than the regular season?
Still middling, mediocre, unimpressive.
Series by series, he has only had two series (Chicago in 2010, Vancouver in 2011) where you can say he performed offensively (12 points in those 12 games),
and he has 10 points in 25 games in the other five series.
Very inconsistent.
Even in the Chicago series, he was great in 3 games (7 points, 12 SOG, +7), and very much ineffective, disappearing in 3 games (0 points, 4 SOG, -2).
He has also has 1 goal and 2 assists (and been +5) when the other team has pulled the goalie, boosting his numbers.
Here are some players around the league with comparable roles to Legwand
Your comparables (D centers b/w 2.5 and 5.5 M) include a really bad contact (Horcoff), perhaps the best d center in the game (Malhotra) and two guys with their best years in front of them (Zajac and Bolland, who is truly a playoff performer—-ask SOB, Daniel Sedin, amd Bieksa, who Bolland all drove nuts, while putting up 34 points in 43 games). Random.
Yet you selectively for reasons unclear to every one exclude excellent 2 way shutdown centers like Mike Richards, Koivu, Kesler, Pavelski, Bergeron, Toews, Jordan Staal, Laich, Dubinsky, and Helm (who had ~30 points playing strictly with bottom six wingers and no PP time). All of which put Legwand to shame.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 29, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
YIKES!
Get em Belak. Bout time you showed up for the fight :)
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 29, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
And here I was, ready to congrats Sam on an argument well-made, and then DFTB comes in and just destroys Sam’s post. I am in awe of you, DFTB. You have laid a great deal of Sam’s argument to waste.
Hopefully, Donkey gets relegated to 3rd line next year and we won’t have to waste so much discourse on him.
DFTB, I guess you agree, then, with the rest of the post. Except the Beltran thing, of course.
So, my tactic with conservation of apex predators is to get people excited and take them to where they live.
~Steve Irwin
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
I am not sure
what point Sam is trying to make about Beltran, or about being above calling players out for being lazy. GMs and Coaches are incredibly loyal to their boys, and the fact that Trotz and Poile have, each, called out Legwand, multiple times, for needing to do more, leaves me with the impression they too believe he isn’t leaving it all out there on the ice.
I have followed Legwand and Kovalev closely in the past few years. I think they are both amongst the laziest players in the game today. They may have talent and bring something to the table sometimes, but its not like its a lone voice in the fandom wilderness that desires more out of these guys. Legwand’s own coach and GM, and every coach and GM Kovalev has likely ever had.
“if David Legwand doesn’t score more than 20 goals next season, I’m not going to be very happy.” I could have said those words. In his last three years, he has 48 goals (9 into an empty net). He has beat a goalie an average of 13 times a year. Not good.
You may as well have Spaling take over the role, lose some of that nonexistant offence, since his hard, physical play can actually spark the crowd and his teammates, use the savings for a playoff style skill player, and take another step in the transition away from the Legwand/Erat/Sullivan/Dumont/Arnott era of floaters and periphery skaters.
There were many reasons why the Preds took 12 seasons and 6 cracks to get out of the first round, but having that as your core group of forwards especially hurt.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking at the list of potentially available RFA/UFA, who would you like to see in Nashville? I would expect Leggy to stay in Nashville, so salary would have to be less than 4.25M, I expect,with the other signings that need to be made in the next two years.
So, my tactic with conservation of apex predators is to get people excited and take them to where they live.
~Steve Irwin
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
Picked apart game by game, series by series, pretty much every player in the league is "inconsistent’ like this. Vancouver fans were worried a goalless Kesler after the Chicago series, but two weeks later, he was a superhero, while the Sedins had switched places with him.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
by Dirk Hoag on May 29, 2011 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but unlike Kesler, the Sedin twins, etc, there's no upside to Leggy like they bring...
and that makes his inconsistencies a huge problem when he’s pulling down $4.5M per
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Inconsistent
Kesler’s inconsistency: going from an all-world dominant performance against Toews (who didn’t score until 2 minutes left, short-handed, in Game SEVEN),
to an all-world dominant performance at both ends of the ice (11 points on 14 Canucks goals, and the Preds as a team had 11 goals). Then ‘comes back to earth’ with simply a good performance (including playing hurt, scoring the deadlock goal with a minute left in Game 5, then reverting to beast mode in OT.
Legwand’s inconsistency: two great playoff series, five mediocre ones. 22 points in 37 games. Which more or less is the same guy he is in the regular season. He doesn’t elevate his game in the playoffs.
The Sedins’ inconsistency: disappeared for Games 4-6 in the Chicago series and most of Games 1-5 of the Preds series, but dominated on either side of that to the tune of 21 (Hank) and 16 (Dan) points, respectively.
In fact, the Sedins have been lambasted throughout their careers for their uneven performance come the playoffs, but since 2007 (when they became first liners, after Bertuzzi-Morrison-Naslund got broken up with Bert’s trade to Florida) they have been inconsistent to the tune of
45 pts (Dan) and 49 (Hank) points in 52 games.
So yeah, Legwand is inconsistent in the regular season and the playoffs, and sure, so are Kesler/Sedins. But one guy’s inconsistency is between invisible to mediocre-to decent, when the others bounce between decent and dominant.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
There are no perfect comparables. You can always find differences in different players. To my mind, however, Malholtra, Zajac, and Bolland are very close to Legwand in terms of role and production. And the fact that Horcoff has a bad contract was of course also to my point—there are contracts for similar players worse than Legwand’s.
The players you mention—by your own admission—are much better than Legwand. So why would I list them under comparable players to Legwand? I think you’ve completely misunderstood my argument.
perfect understanding
you have to omit quite a few 2-way D centers to make Our Hero appear decent. The extent of your omissions speaks to the length one must go to to make Our Hero appear decent. Even then, one of your comparisons (Bolland) puts Our Hero to shame in terms of playoff performance. You inclusion of Horcoff and not Koivu, Richards, Staal, Bergeron, Krejci, Kesler, etc, guys with similar roles, better contracts, and far better O and D, shows your bias.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 7:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you’re still misunderstanding – you cannot compare David Legwand to Mikko Koivu, Mike Richards, Patrice Bergeron, or Ryan Kesler. Contracts aside, Legwand is nowhere near as talented or effective as those guys. He’s in the second tier of two-way centers, and Sam classified him as such. Bolland, Malhotra, Legwand, Fisher – those are who we’re talking about here.
Lemme quote the late, great Colonel Sanders. He said "I'm too drunk to taste this chicken."
by Chris Burton on May 30, 2011 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
The second tier of forwards
with comparable contracts includes the guys I have mentioned.
If he includes Horcoff, he should include the rest, but of course its serves his “argument” (and bias) to simply avoid the proper comparisons.
Not sure how he can call Legwand a two way player that elevates his game in the playoffs when using Bolland as a measuring stick, which is an obvious failing of this article, too.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Richards and Bergeron are not “second tier” two-way forwards. They are elite.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 3, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm comparing contracts
not players! Read the post again. “Showing my bias” would be comparing him to the players you mention, implying that Legwand is as good as them and therefore should be paid as well.
If it is contracts
and you include Horcoff (5.5 M, an admitted example of a bad contract) and Malhotra (2.5 M), with a range of production from 30 to 44 points, its inconsistent (like Leggy) of you not to include other 2 way centers with major league D and shorthanded responsibilities like
Richards (5.75)
Kesler 5 M
J. Staal 4 M
Bergeron (4.75 M)
Pavelski (4 M)
Krejci (3.75 M)
Vermette (3.75 M)
Stoll 3.6 M
Koivu (3.25 M)
Laich (2.1 M)
Dubinsky (1.85 M)
all players who are solid to outstanding on D while producing better than Our Hero, easy.
Again, you include Horcoff (with the obvious bias of including a contract worse than Leggy’s), you should include all the players in that salary range too with that same role to get a feel of where Legwand fits in the heirarchy. If you believe Horcoff is comparable, than the players I listed should be comparable too.
And that doesn’t even touch upon Helm, Dupuis, Chris Kelly, Dom Moore, Nielsen of the world who get paid far less than Leggy to just play solid D (and end up producing comparable numbers to the range you listed, without top six minutes or PP time).
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
DFTB FOR THE WIN!
Don’tfeedtheBelak with the FLAWLESS VICTORY. My, oh my.
Considering the first bullet point in Sam’s article said that Legwand is overpaid… I’m not sure what kind of victory that is. Stick vs. Dead Horse, perhaps?
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
by Dirk Hoag on May 30, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
recognizing that Leggy is overpaid isn't the issue.....
DFTB is pointing out the bias comparisons in similar contracts. And those bias comparison serve to hide just how obscenely overpaid Sir David is – and what that salary ought to be producing for our hockey club but isn’t. The message in return from the Leggy crowd is “yea, he’s overpaid but look, he does produce” – translated, lets live with it. Only when one sees just how obscenely over paid Leggy is do fans start to ask why aren’t we looking for a soution.
If would be nice if more OTF stuff was more objective….
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What strikes me as a lack of objectivity is a small (but very vocal) minority of folks which launches diatribes at any opinion expressed of Legwand that calls for anything less than his immediate shipment out of town.
That’s absurd. The guy leads all Nashville forwards in ice time for a reason. He does have value as an NHL player.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Alex Kovalev
has value as an NHL player. Of course Leggy has value as an NHL player. Doesn’t mean he has alot of value, or that Leggy is simply a good player signed to a not so good contract.
What strikes me as a lack of objectivity
How does the lack of objectivity ‘anti-Leggy’ strike you any differently than the profound lack of objectivity in the ‘pro-Leggy’ camp, including the poor reasoning in this post and discussion?
Are you seriously ignoring Sam’s argument in support of his comparisons? That he didn’t include Dubinsky because he was signed as a RFA (while including Zajac, Bolland who both signed as RFAs?) Up top, he uses numbers and stats and salaries from the last year, and then makes up stuff later on to justify why Horcoff was a touchstone and Dubie, Bergeron et al are not.
Maybe Horcoff is more favorable a comparison point than Bergeron. Being more inclusive of the two way second line D-minded centers, and broadly looking at where Legwand would fit in with those players, gives you a better idea if he truly is a ‘good player’ for his role, with the unfortunate circumstance of being signed to a bad contract.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
you exaggerate ... again
those of us not drinking the Leggy cool aid do not precipitate this stuff….the Church of Legwand (to borrow DFTB’s great statement) do. We’re just the truth tellers keep y’all honest when we see this stuff get posted.
Here are a few facts: I:ve stated clearly Legwand is a good hockey player. Heck, I think its clear DFTB and SWFP have said similar. No one thinks he worthless. But he’s not worth anywhere near $4.5M in salary. My point is that the committment of SO much money to Leggy prevents us from acquiring what we need, a UFA scorer. That is not leggy but he is being paid like it is. So you bet, we would like to move him out of town and use the salary for what we need, a scorer.
So lets not exaggerate so as to defend Sir David. He’s an NHL hockey player. All indicate he is grossly over paid and – based on our salary needs (Weber, Peks, Suts, etc), we cannot afford Leggy when we need what he is not.
And be careful with “diatribe”. When you choose a PROFESSED Leggy fan to write his report card, when he then gets an A when he largely sucked and failed to meet his Coach and GM’s expectation (not less many many fans) and other posters then misrepresent what we are saying, and when you’re folow up writer leaves out very relevant contracts while comparing Leggy’s contract so as to over state Leggy’s value to make the $4.5M he makes look reasonable, of course we’re going to call you on it. That’s not a diatribe, that’s keeping you guys honest. Sorry it doesn’t fit the conclusion you would like.
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Its his use of comparisons
that is troubling. Horcoff, and not Bergeron, Kesler, et al.? Two way second line centers, all.
His argument below on why he made his omissions (RFA versus UFA status) is a weak after the fact scramble to defend a poorly reasoned out post. So much so, that two of his examples (Zajac, Bolland) were signed as RFAs, yet he uses the RFA excuse to not include Dubinsky.
This is not anti-Legwand beating a dead horse type stuff. I was on your case when you used Weber’s Slapshot Comp and ASG assist totals in your ‘Webs for Norris" article. This is anti- the profoundly weak reasoning that this site is known to have time to time. It just so happens that this is another in the long line of "Leggy isn’t as bad as it may seem because " articles.
“Meet me half-way”. Right.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sorry that on occasion we fail to live up to your demanding standards. Feel free to head over to the Complaints Department for your refund.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Maybe
Enough folks post that Legwand is a playoff performer (despite his career as being the same guy he is in the regular season, and despite comparing poorly to Dave Bolland, one of the few comparisons chosen), he is of similar value compared to his comparables (if you include Horcoff, and ignore most of the other similar class centers), that some blindly take such statements at face value.
I work down the hall from SWFP, so I don’t have that luxury.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
the playoff performer thing
was meant to be a concession to the people that thing he only tries in the playoffs. It wasn’t meant as a statement as merit. I’m very open to the idea that his success in the last two playoffs is as much about random variation as him actually trying harder.
Actually, skip the Complaints Department
You can head right to the exit.
Banned, ye are.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Really?
It had to come to all of this. After all this bile and “they said, we said” it comes to a ban? That sucks, and by this, I mean is anyone on here David Poile, and can anyone correct or rescend or control any real thing that has to do with our beloved Preds?
I love to see good banter, but this arguing for arguments sake is the exact reason many have tranferred over here from HB because of all the &^% that gets thrown around over there.
I think both sides have very valid arguments so in the end, maybe this article should have titled “Agree to disagree” and leave it the hell at that.
Man alive, aren’t we all deep down Preds fans here?
“Same team, Farva, same team”
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 30, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
whats interesting hardcore predsfan316 is my post is only about how we can land a sniper
a truly talened, $5M sniper. unfortunately, I took aim – under a completely relevant article – on someone who is considered way over-paid (Legwand). It couldn’t be left at that. Folks had to suggest it wasn’t do-able, when it clearly is.
Fans are are fans, so this is bound to occur. My true hope though is that in folks like DFTB supporting his pov, he isn’t penalized for it by warnings or bans. If that is what happened, then the true fault lies in posting teh “David Legwand is a good player piece” because if we’re not willing to accept the contrary point of view (as DFTB posted), we shouldn’t be willing to accept the “David Legwand is a good player” point of view. Otherwise, its just bias.
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
did you really ban him Dirk? what for, disagreeing with you?
because he didn’t disparage anyone, ridicule anyone, use profantity. he just disagreed and put up a pov to the contrary. I’m getting greatly misrepresented below and at NO time am I suggesting the gentleman be banned.
Please confirm this was just frustrated humor on your part.
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
For the last time...
The nature of one’s opinion is not the issue here. Never has been, never will be, and I take the suggestion that it is, as a personal insult.
What is a problem is when some people simply foment conflict, like this “Church of Legwand” stuff. That is a complete misrepresentation of what’s been said here, and it’s simply a device to stir people up. It pisses people off, and runs entirely against the tone of the community.
Yes, DFTB has been banned.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Let me first start out by saying...
I really truly love this site and the opinions of all, whether I agree or not.
But, Dirk, what you have stated above I can take as being a tad hypocritical. If what you state is correct, then what Sam Page did was stir people up that are in the “I don’t like Leggy” camp, and in this case, the aforementioned have as much right to voice their displeasure and reasoning behind why they think that said poster or blogger is right or wrong. The only instance in which I feel that this is ban-worthy would be a personal attack, which as far as I can tell, and if such proof exists, I would like you to point it out, has not occured from the likes of DFTB.
Not to persecute GrizzledBear, but later on in this very thread, he flat out states that keepellisingoal is " a very immature and not very astute individual" which to me warrants a personal attack. We have to either let bygones be bygones, or drop the hammer with a ban for these violations.
Pot-stirring is what makes these blogs interesting whether you agree or not, that’s why I love coming here, and if it gets out of hand, then by all means, privately message said rabble-rouser (don’t know if you did this or not, just saying) or post something in the messages in the effect of “Hey, things are starting to get a little out of hand, let’s let cooler heads prevail”
I pray I don’t get banned for stating these grievances, and lest we not forget…
“WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM HERE!!”
Goodnight all.
Sincerely,
HardCorePredFan316
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 30, 2011 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And I stand by those comments!
If someone wants to be continually and deliberately obtuse and substitute rants for reasoned arguments, then what I said is valid.
by Grizzledbear on May 31, 2011 12:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And I fully understand...
and I believe both of you have valid arguments but just aren’t seeing eye to eye. Not trying to single you or anyone out, but what you consider “obtuse rants” may be what he considers your responses to be.
For example, I read all of the posts going back and forth between the both of you, and I see both points of view, and I kinda side with keepellisingoal more than you in that argument, although what he proposes is highly unlikely, but it “could” happen.
Ugh. I guess what I’m trying to say is what I stated multiple times in this thread…AGREE TO DISAGREE.
And for those of you thinking that posters like DFTB or SWFP (not trying to single out, just examples) are trollng to stir the pot…the easiest way to put these jabs to rest…..DON’T RESPOND. Just move on and you’ll find your life and the whole of this blog will be the richer for it. When they persist after being ignored, that’s when Dirk or Burton or whoever can intervene and dole out justice or concerns. That’s all I’m saying. Not trying to be gooey, but I love all of the posters here like a fat kid loves cake (and I should know ;)) and I would hate to see any of them banned or reprimanded for actions that are seemingly unjust for expressing (fervently) their opinions much like you and I do.
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 31, 2011 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
But you did single me out. ;)
All I ask is that when people set out to make an argument, use real numbers and use actual players, because if all we do is use anonymous players and not add up the real numbers that it will cost to ice a 22 man roster, that really isn’t a valid baseline to present an argument and just leads to the kind of chaos we got in this multi-faceted thread.
by Grizzledbear on May 31, 2011 1:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's all good, bro.
Made for tasty back and forth, moving on, we still have plenty of player’s report cards to get through, and I have what I think will be a definitive list of RFA/UFA offensive prospects that the Preds should take a solid look at.
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 31, 2011 4:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Ugh. I guess what I’m trying to say is what I stated multiple times in this thread…AGREE TO DISAGREE.
And for those of you thinking that posters like DFTB or SWFP (not trying to single out, just examples) are trollng to stir the pot…the easiest way to put these jabs to rest…..DON’T RESPOND.
Excellent advice that the likes of DFTB should follow as well. Unfortunately…
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Dirk, since you publically raised the issue ...
could you point out where DFTB crossed the line?
by keepellisingoal on Jun 1, 2011 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions
my posts are all about taking $14M in existing salary
and re-using it for raises to existing key players and to land a $5M UFA sniper as well. I fully admitted it would be challenging. My point was – in each and every post – that we had the money to do the raises, land a $5M sniper and not spend more than we are already comitted to spend.
I’m not sure how speaking to your questions/challenges that such could not be done constituted a rant. And it certainly wasn’t obtuse when I listed the $14M in savings and the $13.58M in spending.
by keepellisingoal on Jun 1, 2011 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
we can’t deny the First Church of Legwand has not worked. Since it started his points went to where they should be for what he has paid. It was started to make fun of him, yet the hockey gods struck DFTB with a blow by giving him pretty decent numbers. So I guess, joke was on DFTB?
Canucks new slogan: Show us some hits, we'll show you our tits
by Creeping Death on May 31, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Total Beeswax.
Do the right thing Dirk, and put him back in the lineup.
No need to let pride get in the way of a good joust, which you ARE losing. Don’t take your ball home with you.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 31, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I have had many dust-ups with DTFB, and at times have been majorly upset with him. I do think he comes up with good arguments, not every time but usually; he does the work to come up with numbers to back up some of his statements and generally has a pretty good depth of knowledge on goings-on around the league. I don’t think he has made me change my mind on anything, but he has made me look deeper at players and situations. Based on what I have read above (leading to the ban) and his willingness to stay with a fight, even to the point of nausea occasionally, I do not support this ban. Pass that on to him for me, SWFP.
And so, paraphrasing the words from the Dude, “This ban cannot stand, man!”
So, my tactic with conservation of apex predators is to get people excited and take them to where they live.
~Steve Irwin
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
WoW!
Banned for that? I can’t believe I haven’t been banned. i have said way worse on here. Lame.
Seems to be the consensus.
Cmon Dirk, get a good night’s sleep, wake up, and do the right thing!
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 31, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
SWFP, since you know and sit near DFTB....
…..he’s not still banned is he?
by keepellisingoal on Jun 1, 2011 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
He's out of town this week on business.
I’ll find out soon. But as of yesterday when we were talking about it on the way to the airport, the ban was in effect.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Jun 1, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks SWFP....
….where will you guys likely sit next season? would like to meet you.
as to what is going on here, it would be nice to see some transparency as to what the alleged infraction is/was. Otherwise, its just someone’s conclusion.
HardCorerPredsFan316’s post above on May 30th at 8:50pm really spoke volumes – I’m citing that response as its from someone not involved at all in the back and forth…..
nice to see support from you, CISAR, 29th Ward, etc.
by keepellisingoal on Jun 2, 2011 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
We are the three tenors.
Ever play the game Babylon?
And Dirk has obviously given us the silent treatment!
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Jun 2, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I have not (played Babylon)
but we are the three truth tellers!
Suspect Dirk is in a bad position; he’s both a Preds fan, a poster and the Managing Editor. Opinionated, Opinionated, Expected to Be 100% Impartial. Tough role to be in and, when one side of an argument takes it in the shorts, makes everyone want to see the aggregious conduct pointed out, especially when the ban is conducted PUBLICLY.
Frustrating…..
btw, section number for next year? if you know it that is…..
by keepellisingoal on Jun 3, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
You didn't get the Babylon reference!
We are 310ers. But in the game Babylon, it might be spelled “Three tenors” and Babylon might be spelled “Babble On.”
Get it?
Yeah, Dirks in a tough spot and it seems like this arguement was the straw that broke the camel’s back. That’s evidenced by the reference to the First Church of Legwand and how he hated it so much.
He should still do the right thing though and just reinstate him.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Jun 3, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
My reference to the Church of Legwand was meant in reply to keepellisingoal’s comment.
I’ve taken the discussion with DFTB offline, the thing I regret here is noting his ban publicly.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
He'd especially like to respond to GD's post I'm sure.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Jun 3, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
but that's not the post of mine you responded to....
your response that made this reference:
“For the last time… The nature of one’s opinion is not the issue here. Never has been, never will be, and I take the suggestion that it is, as a personal insult.
What is a problem is when some people simply foment conflict, like this "Church of Legwand" stuff. That is a complete misrepresentation of what’s been said here, and it’s simply a device to stir people up. It pisses people off, and runs entirely against the tone of the community.
Yes, DFTB has been banned."
Your response was to my asking about DFTB and why he was banned. And when I asked that, I did not make any reference to this phrase.
Very good news you have taken this off line with DFTB. I would suggest that HardCorePredFan316’s 8:50pm post from May 30th is very helpful in understanding what occured in this post. It really highlights things. And since you are sighting my postings, you should read those again as I thoroughly explained the re-use of the $14M in salary so as not to spend any further salary dollars than we are currently spending. I only spoke about what I perceived as Grizzledbear’s bias when it became clear he was not reading my posts (I think I’d repeated myself two or three times at that point). Noteworthy, Grizzledbear began his very FIRST posted response with a subject line in all CAPS, with half a dozen explanation points telling me how wrong I was in my view. And I did not respond to that in kind but was very balanced and non-confrontational. His posts continued in a much more amp’d up fashion that mine for several more back and forths. It was pretty reasonable for me to believe a fan bias was involved as a result. My responses didn’t belittle, smear, attack or otherwise but simply called out the fan bias. I could be wrong (so might he be) but that should not be a concern if all we are is wrong.
One thing that might help is for everyone to be ok with the idea that someone else calls them wrong; not by attacking them, not by smearing them or belittling them or cussing them but simply to say you’re wrong and to lay out the facts as to why (DFTB does that well because he is so knowledgeable). Grizzledbear thinks that of me and that’s really fine. That shoudl be no more antagonizing than saying someone is “drinking the cool aid” or part of the Church of Legwand, esp when facts are presented to support the point of view. I’m sure it would also have helped if the person who did the report card on Leggy wasn’t such a Legwand fan and the follow up had not be so open to factual criticism. Nothing is ever perfect but in this context, and so long as NO attacks, smear or similar are occuring, a pretty wide path ought to be allowed for those engaged in the spirited debate given how it started and its vulnerabilities to criticism. Would again refer to HCPF316’s post as it captures not these same but similar sentiments very astutely.
Thank you for talking to DFTB – I think a lot of us would appreciate his return to these pages. He brings a great point of view and, especially, an extremely knowledgeable one.
by keepellisingoal on Jun 4, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Can you fly to St. Louis and help with the labor negotiations?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Jun 4, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
how funny...
I was in St Louis for an event for my company Saturday (Cardinals-Cubs game).
I haven’t see DFTB. He still out of the line-up? Any developments?
by keepellisingoal on Jun 7, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't get the Babylon reference...
but your post on the three tenors made me laugh a little (needed for this set of postings).
Cool on Section 310. I’ll stop by in the fall – probably bring a sign that says Shea Weber for President!
Agree on re-instating DFTB.
by keepellisingoal on Jun 3, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you know that if you were to turn WoW upside down....
….it would say MoM?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 31, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
World of Wonder?
How about World Wide Weber? You heard it hear first!
World Wide Weber.
He’s got the whole world, in his beard.
He’s got the whole wide world, in his beard.
He’s got the whole world, in his beard.
He’s got the whole world in his beard.
So, my tactic with conservation of apex predators is to get people excited and take them to where they live.
~Steve Irwin
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
feel free to take his comments seriously....they're supported, not exaggerated
then there is the reference to humor when logic is missing
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore
If you read my post, you’d see I was just showing that comparable players have comparable contracts. I’m not justifying Legwand’s contract or trying to present their entire league pay scale.
I still fail to see what listing much better players signed to team-friendly deals like Kesler, Stall, and Koivu proves.
Dubinsky and Nielsen are good comps—and I thought of using them—but Dubinsky’s contract was RFA and Nielsen was entry-level, making any comparisons pointless.
You do realize
Zajac and Bolland, two of your random comparisons, were signed to their current deals when they were RFAs/pending RFAS in the summer of 2009?
Maybe you shouldn’t undermine your credibility, so blatantly, and thoroughly.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
browsing capgeek
Krejci, Pavelski, and Koivu were also all RFA contracts. Legwand made ~1.6 a year after his entry-level deal ran out.
A fair comparison would be Legwand at 1.5M vs. Koivu at 3.25M OR Legwand at 4.5M vs. Koivu at 6.75M, his new deal.
Between this argument and the one I’m embroiled in futher down the page, this thread is like an octupus with tenicles going every which way! :D
It’s al Legwand’s fault! :)
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 3:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You do realize
that Bolland and Zajac were signed in 2009, right? As RFAs?
Keep in mind the stats and salaries you used above were all from the current season. Not “well, Leggy in his RFA year versus Bolland in his RFA year” (which would be even less flattering for Your Hero).
Keep the mice spinning their wheels up there, Sam. They are bound to come up with something better.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I do realize
and that’s a big reason why they’re paid less than Legwand. For the last time, I was just trying to establish that similar players are paid similar salaries. If you read the context of my post, I was clearly saying that Legwand is overpaid but he’s not being paid at the upper-levels of the payscale to be a 2nd line winger. You examples of Richards, Datsyuk, and Koivu would seemingly prove that point, as they are toward the upper-reaches of the payscale and are better players.
Of course better players are paid less—that wasn’t my point. I wasn’t trying to prove that he is overpaid—that’s well known. And comparing him to underpaid players like Ryan Kesler isn’t needed to prove that.
If I really wanted to flatter Legwand, I would have used his RFA salary, right? Not the other way around. Because in his RFA years, he was paid 2M less than Bolland for similar production.
Finally, I don’t know why this thread has to devolve into personal insults against my intelligence and “credibility,” especially when I think you’re simply missing my point.
It seems like, in your mind, Legwand is “my hero” and I’m trying to deceive everyone into thinking he’s a great player. Not at all—my post is just trying to help people realize that he’s a good player signed to a bad contract, which is not something to get upset and insulting about—a point apparently lost on you.
Credibility
Your thesis “similar players are paid similar” salaries is ignorant of the fact that good value/bad value contracts (Horcoff, using one of your examples) work against this premise.
I argued against the four comparisons you chose, and suggested a wider base of comparable two way D centers who were in the range of salary you established.
After the fact,
you stated that you excluded Dubinsky because he was signed as a RFA, which is inconsistent with the fact that you included
Bolland and Zajac (two of your random Four Horsemen) who signed as RFAs.
When I challenge your reasoning/logic, you seemingly pulled something random out of thin air. Can you better explain why the RFA contact of Dubinisky wasn’t included, and Bolland and Zajac were?
Additionally, your claim that Legwand picks his game up in the playoffs seems to be in stark contrast to his body of work in the playoffs. I reasoned out why I thought that above. In fact, a better example of such a player is David Bolland (one of the reasons they extended him and kept him over others like Buff was his 2009 playoff season).
help people realize that he’s a good player signed to a bad contract
I want to help people realize that he is an average/middling/mediocre player that sometimes plays up to snuff, signed to a bad contract. Your more than welcome to counter my point but to do so when making stuff up, or selectively using examples (based on faulty he’s a RFA/not a RFA logic) is weak.
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That's just it, though
I’m not trying to refute you. “similar players are paid similar money” is not a thesis. It’s just an observation, meant to counter the idea that all Legwand-types are always paid Marcel Goc, or as you point out, Brandon Dubinsky money.
And I’m not going to argue with you about the whether Legwand is good or “middling.” I think that case has been made sufficiently elsewhere by Dirk and others. And it’s certainly not what I was trying to prove with the salaries.
You are free to believe he is mediocre. I doubt I could change your mind.
Why include Zajac
and not Dubinsky?
Bergeron’s contract was pending UFA, like Legwand. Why not him?
If you broadly look at second line, quality D, two centers, you can see that Legwand may not be as good for the dollar, or good altogether, as you may previously have believed just looking at your group of 4 (with Horcoff).
by DontfeedtheBelak on May 30, 2011 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I used Zajac and not Dubinsky
because Dubinsky is very much underpaid, whereas Zajac made about what he was worth this season. And my point in doing that was not to mislead people into thinking Legwand earned his contract, but to prove that not every player is massively underpaid, like Dubi and Goc.
Obviously you think Legwand is very overpaid. But contracts don’t prove that in either direction. Horcoff’s bad contract does not mean Legwand’s contract is good. And Dubi’s good contract doesn’t not necessarily mean Legwand’s contract is bad (although it is). I’m not making an argument about Legwand’s worth with those comparable players.
The RFA thing was just my way of saying Dubi and Nielsen were underpaid, a la Goc. I didn’t literally exclude them because they were RFAs. My apologies.
I always thought of Legwand as an ANTI-2 way player.
He has skills on both sides of the ice, but he can rarely put them both together at the same time. He is almost 100% dependent on his line mates and in the role he’s put in. You tell him to play shut down, he can do it. You tell him to play offensively, he can do it. You tell him to play shut down and try to score at the same time……deeerrrr…..wha happen?
Put him on a line with Kariya and Sullivan and he’ll put up numbers. Put him with Ward and Smithson, where he spent most of last season, and you’ll get those pitiful numbers that he put up last season.
And that’s something that drives me crazy about whenever Trotz calls Legwand out for not scoring. Legwand will score when he’s put in the position to do so. It’s not fair to put the guy on a non-scoring unit and then complain that he’s not scoring.
Legwand has his pluses and his minuses but the question I always ask is this. Are the Predators a better team without Legwand? Take the contract out of it. Just on the ice, would the team be better if Legwand vanished tomorrow? I think not. He’s overpaid, sure. But if we had to go out into free agency and try to replace everything Legwand DOES provide this team I think we’d end up spending even more.
And why should that contract constantly be held over his head anyway? Is anybody really mad at Legwand for taking what he was offered? The only person who should be held accountable is Poile and the ownership who gave him that money. You can’t blame Legwand for taking that money. There’s not a single person reading this site who would say, 4.5 a year??? Ehhhh…..let’s make it 3, Dave.
I don't blame Leggy for taking the money.
That’s Poile’s bad judgement in my opinion.
Are we better without him? No.
Are we worse without him? Also no.
He is a decent 3rd line checking center. That’s it. And he is lazy, I see it often.
Another arguement is about how he scores when he’s on a scoring line and he doesn’t when he’s not. That’s flawed though because he had ZERO power play goals this year. He has no offensive skills unless somebody carries him. Elevating his game in the playoffs? Puuuuhhhhlease! He ends his laziness.
Like you, he is lethargic j/k
Until the net becomes empty, which is when he becomes a shark who smells blood.
Thanks for the olive branch Sam. Much of what you said is true, and I would agree with a lot of it. But not all of it.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 28, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent observation
I’ve never thought of it that way, but you have an excellent hypothesis…he can’t put both together at the same time.
The question is: is that his fault or is it the nature of his role? In other words, is it possible for him to shut down the opponent’s top line AND score? There are very few players in the league that can do both. Zetterberg, Datysuk, Kesler come to mind. Maybe David just isn’t that caliber of player.
I agree it's an interesting comment
and I’d add Mikko Koivu and Mike Richards to three forwards you mention.
re: excellent observation
Maybe David just isn’t that caliber of player.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
by Shawn Kehoe on May 29, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
What a wonderfully well thought out piece of writing. I think this might be the best breakdown of Legwand that anyone has every written.
I am glad that you noted Legwand’s skating ability. One reason that people often call him lazy is that he seems to just glide around on the ice. The reason he looks like that is because he is an excellent skater who isn’t wasting energy with his strides.
Not so much in my opinion.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 28, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Very good article and break down
Sam, this does capture the Leggy conundrum very well. To your closing question, my point of view would be simply “yes”.
Above said, he’s absorbing too much salary for what we are receiving. And, given our economics, and need for scoring (which was clearly evident from all commentators in our second playoff series against the nucks), we must have the talented sniper, our missing piece. And Leggy, JP and a reduction for Sully are how to do that. Sully is very straightforward (in my view), its just a smaller salary with benchmarks for more. At 35 and having struggled with injuries, I bet Sully would very much understand. ANd if he met the benchmarks, I’m sure every pred fan would be overjoyed at paying a million or more for that (in addition to his salary).
Leggy is the sticking point though. Its the sore thumb – and different than Marty, or Horny, or Fish as they may not always reach the level we would like, but they are so much closer. I think the point is Leggy is falling so short of meeting that salary that regardless how much we understand that he took what was offered, it doesn’t work for the team. So we have to find a trade, and maybe abosrb another small buy out to make that work. Or part with Wilson or d man Ellis to get it done.
And the buy out is simply a tool to try to get the NTC or NMC waived.
Again however very nice and balanced article. Very nice…
by keepellisingoal on May 28, 2011 6:37 PM EDT reply actions
IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Regardless of the assumed benefit of what you’re suggesting here, it’s not gonna happen. Sure, some team like the Rangers might offer up Gaborik and take Leggy back in return in order to shed themselves of Gaborik’s contract, but do you want a Gaborik type player in return? And buying out Legwand’s contract is a non-starter. And this doesn’t even take into effect Leggy’s NTC.
I’ve always thought it best to think up plausible ways to accomplish what we think this team needs (and we all know that’s offense). Not to repeat again what I’ve suggested before (but of course that’s what I’m doing’ LOL!), if payroll goes up by about 3M, which it likely will go up by close to that amount, you’ve taken care of Weber’s raise. By not re-signing Sully and buying out Dumont (that’s a buyout that’s very doable), you have a little over 6M freed up. Add in reasonable raises for SK74 and Ward (don’t break the bank for them, Poile!) and either keep Goc at his current deal or let him go and you should have about 4M to work with on a payroll around 54M. That’s decent money to sign a UFA, or the preferred route, making a trade for someone. If a stud player becomes available and is worth adding someone like Wilson to the deal (and I would only part with him for a stud forward!), you’ve got another 1.75M to go along with the 4M to pay the guy. We’re in decent shape to make something happen this off-season.
by Grizzledbear on May 28, 2011 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
here's how this could work with Leggy in the deal ...
if you package Leggy in a trade with D man Ellis or with Wilson, you can probably get this done. That then frees up the cash to be able to sign a UFA. Granted, we need to have these deals done in a similar time frame to make sure it works but it can be done.
there are also teams who will have someone they want to send down and do not want to pay them an NHL level salary – we saw that with SOB. If we find a team with someone they want to trade to avoid a buy out, they may be more than happy to take Leggy because his salary will be reduced by the buy out they avoid. He’s a good player, just not $4.5 million good. The buy out doesn’t have to be that large, it can be a $2.0 Million/yr player as that reduces Leggy’s salary by $1.34 Million. Essentially, he becomes a $3 Million player and in the following two years his salary slides to $4Million and $3.5 Million.
Here’s why I don’t think we can rely on the increase in salary cap alone (why we need to free up Leggy’s salary): to do so assumes that ownership was ok with the spike they saw in salary this past season and is will to spend another $4Million more next season – I’m not sure that is at all true. They may well have gulped when they acquired Fisher because they knew he was long term good for the team and short term was needed to show Weber they are serious.
That said, they may have spent a little more in 2010-11, a good share of which was for PARTIAL season salary dollars (which do not add up like things will begin adding up when the 2011 – 2012 season starts). So, I would NOT assume they want to spend another $4Million next year over a significant increase in spend this last year which they would be hit with the full annual affect of next year. This is especially true when they know that in 2012’s offseason, they are going to have to swing raises for Suter and Rinne. This year then needs to be even on spending.
Here’s where I think we can get this done and not rely on (drunken) spending:
Current Salaries:
Legwand $4.5M
Dumont $4.0M (buy out accounted for below)
Sully $3.75M
Wilson $1.75M
Save: $14.00 Million
New Signings:
Weber $3.0M (more)
Sniper $5.0M (new signing – this will get us someone good; and increase chance of others signing – Weber, Suts and Rinne)
Kostitsyn $2.0M (more)
Sully $1.50M ($2.25M lower with bonuses above this)
Ward $.50M (more)
Goc $.25M (more)
Spend: $12.25 Million
Buy Out (JP): $1.33
Total Spend: $13.58 Million or $420,000 less than what was being spent.
And if we’re really serious, put Kleiner in the mix and replace him with a $750,000 D man (Johnson) and we then have spent $1Million less. And if we cannot trade Leggy, we could absorb almost the entire buy out amount of $1.33 Million.
And for the record, I don’t think the best solution is to buy Leggy out; its to do a trade, where we sweeten it with Ellis or WIlson, free up the cash and get a scoring sniper. But always needing a fall back, it could be done. And it leaves salary static for 2011-2012 and that is where we need to be to pull in Suter and Rinne in 2012, as both those guys are going to cost us another $5Million combined. Those are dollars we need to not spend now.
by keepellisingoal on May 28, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
To many variables to ever pan out.
First off, who is this player that some team wants to rid themselves of and take on Leggy in their place and how many years would still be on their contract? And if you move Leggy and trade Wilson, you have two holes to fill in the lineup, not just one. And which 5M sniper do you think we can land with the package you’re offering here? And apart from that, the savings you’re achieving from this could be just as well achieved by not bringing Sully back at all.
There is no economic reason that ownership won’t boost the payroll up by a few million for next season. Revenues were way up in both attendence and advertising as well as the new TV deal the league has with Versus. If the cap goes up by an expected 3M (I think it could be even a bit more), we run no risk of going over the cap midpoint if we have a payroll of between 53 to 54M.
Next season will be challanging due to Suter and Rinne needing new deals. I’d project a total of 6M added to the payroll if we re-sign both of them, won’t be easy to do. Best thing to happen is if Lombardi retires if he can’t make it back from his concussion.
by Grizzledbear on May 28, 2011 10:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I worry about the Lombardi issue
I have the sad and horrible feeling that he will not retire so that he gets that extra money since he’ll probably never play hockey again, and then retire after his contract runs out. It’s a real crap thing to do, but when you can’t play the game anymore after such a concussion, you do what you have to do to earn the remainder of your money. Sucks double since he had a concussion beforehand and we couldn’t get the LTIR insurance on him, then it wouldn’t be as much of a problem. :(
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 28, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
There was a baseball player recently who was injured and decided it was wrong to continue taking the money when he couldn’t play. Would be nice if Lombardi would do that if he can’t play again, but we can’t count on that either.
Really hope that’s something the next CBA gets fixed. A team should be able to buyout a player who can no longer play, IMO. A team should also be able to not have a LTIR players contract count against their cap number, regardless of where they are in their available cap space.
by Grizzledbear on May 28, 2011 11:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the players will never agree to this in the CBO....
a guy who gets injured playing and cannot play anymore has more right to the remainder of his contract that just about anyone playing the game.
by keepellisingoal on May 29, 2011 4:22 AM EDT up reply actions
He would still get paid....
Just not his full salary. True, the NHLPA would never agree to it, which is why I hope some type of compromise can be worked out, such as not having that salary put a team like the Preds over the cap midpoint and thus put them either in jeopordy of either losing out of revenue sharing money or not being able to add a player to replace the injured player. It gives cap limit teams a huge advantage of being able to use LTIR to stay under the cap ceiling while replacing the injured player with another quality player.
by Grizzledbear on May 29, 2011 11:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I did not say it would be easy but it most certainly can be done....
First, it doesn’t matter who the player is that another team wants rid of; the hypothesis is that they would take Leggy at $2.5 – $3Million a year (so would we but we’re already paying much more). Many teams likely would. We simply need to find a team with a ~$2Million player (with one or two years left) that they need to shed – one they do not want to send down and pay an NHL salary to (that’s the reason I cited SOB as an example). We get that guy, they get Leggy. We buy the guy out. We both win on the savings. Its complicated, we may not find a team to do that deal with, but you cannot say it won’t work.
Also, please read my post more carefully as I did not suggest trading Leggy for the sniper; I specifically said that was a UFA. It could also be a trade. But I clearly premised that on being a UFA as it seems pretty unlikely to unload Leggy to a team that needs him, also has a ~$2 Million buy out candidate to send us (so as to effectively lower what they are spending on Leggy) and a great sniper to send us (for whatever reason they might think of doing that – your hypothetical not mine). The first two could be found; all three seems quite unlikely.
Also, as my post notes, I’ve suggested spending only $1.5 Million on Sully. $1.5 Million does not equal a $5 Million sniper. And if you add in Dumont’s buy out, you have no savings to pay for Weber, Kostitsyn or Wardo. That means spending above and beyond what we spent last year. That seems unlikely considering what is coming up with Suts and Peks.
I also love how you spend the owner’s money. My drunken spending comment was warranted. Do you realize that if you pay Weber and Kostitsyn, and Wardo with no savings, your spending the full $4Million extra in cap? Only to then admit you’re spending another $6Million extra in 12-13? On top of the extra $3 – $5 Million spent this year. You have our hard dollar salary expenses up close to $15Million dollars in just three years. Only the federal government spends that way, certainly not the Nashville Predators.
by keepellisingoal on May 29, 2011 4:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Take a chill pill.........
And please read what I wrote more carefully. I never suggested that you said we trade Legwand for the buyout player and the sniper, not sure where you got that from. Secondly, your all over the map regarding what I purposed. Sully=3.75M, Dumont’s buyout for next season=2.66M for that season. That equals 6.41M. You can dispute where our payroll will be next season, but I’ll bet you a nice compsite hockey stick that it will be at least 53M next season, maybe a bit higher depending on where Weber comes in at.
Now apparently you want to pay both SK74 and Ward quite a bit more than I would, which maybe is why your framework for the whole budget is different than mine. I’m talking no more than a combined 2M raise for both of them. Minus that off the 6.41M savings with Sully & Dumont and you have the 4M I’m talking about. The team HAS to increase it’s payroll near the cap midpoint if it hopes to retain Weber and make even a moderate improvement to it’s offense.
Now, I ask again, which player is out there that some team wants to buyout and only has one to two years left on their contract? Sure, it could happen, not very probable though. And that’s my whole point here: why obsess on a scheme that has, at best, a miniscule chance of ever becoming reality? And your ignoring the fact that you’re moving Legwand in your buyout deal and Wilson and maybe Ellis as well in the sniper deal, which equates to all 3 of those players for this un-named sniper. Unless that guys nale is Parise, it’s a non- starter as far as I’m concerned.
As to the difficulty of keeping both Suter and Rinne, I’ve already stated that I think we’ll need to choose between one of them. I hate the prospect of that, but unless ownership becomes increasingly generous in what they want to spend on the team, I think it would be detrimental to us long term to have over 20M spent on just three players, which would leave us unable to ever improve ourselves offensively for a long time to come. We’ve always been able to develop quality goaltenders, and as much as I’d hate to lose Rinne, I’d have a hard time putting 6+M on that position. Many would disagree with my take on that and they are reasonable to do so considering how good Pekka was for us this season, but I’ve seen so many teams burned over the years by throwing huge dollars at a goalie based on one great season. But if Pekka plays the way he did this season next year, it’ll make it a much tougher decision.
by Grizzledbear on May 29, 2011 11:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
there's only one of us not reading what the post says (that would you yourself)
you said: " First off, who is this player that some team wants to rid themselves of and take on Leggy in their place and how many years would still be on their contract? And if you move Leggy and trade Wilson, you have two holes to fill in the lineup, not just one. And which 5M sniper do you think we can land with the package you’re offering here?"
And which $5M sniper do you think we can land with the package you’re offering doesn’t mean UFA – it means trade. You directly refer to the trade package (Leggy and Wilson) that I suggested as a means to shed Leggy when his salary is so out of whack. You make this sound un-doable by indicating a trade that needs three things is never going to happen (I’m close to agreeing on that; its only realistic to think a team has dead weight, Leggy isn’t at the right salary and so we do the swap and each save money).
I’m also not all over the map: I listed the salaries we need to save money on ($14M) and listed a proposed new spend. I did not list spending $3.75M on Sully but rather $1.5M. Its right there to see. The issue is that you believe the team will be very comfortable spending ANOTHER $4M this coming year, after spending an additional $3M – $5M last year and knowing they’ll spend another $6Million (your estimate) next year. That puts our salary at $60M/yr. I think you’ve confused us with another hockey club if you think this is going to happen.
As to Wardo and SK74, you indicate above you would pay them an additional combined $2Million and I want to pay them quite a bit more. I do not; my suggestion is a combined $2.5M more.
Also, my posts interchangeable refer to trading WIlson or Ellis – not both. As my last post makes clear, a trade for a sniper is possible, by my primary suggestion was a UFA. Its about freeing the money up.
Where we REALLY disagree is that we have to choose btwn Suter and Rinne. That’s simply not true. And if you want to scare folks like Weber into signing somewhere else, let’s get that discussion going.
There is a way to do this, its to take on the one salary on this team where the player doesn’t step up during the season. Folks criticize Marty but though he has shortcomings, they are not nearly as blatant and subject of the level of criticism (from front office too) as Leggy’s. We need to move Leggy.
An item I skipped over from your previous post: if we trade Leggy and Wilson, we have two holes to fill. Not the case, as Sam himself noted in his article, Goc can fill in for Leggy (and as we all know, we have an abundance of centers, even if you trade Leggy and Lombardi cannot return we are fine at center with Fish, Goc, Spaling, O’Reilly and Smithson.) And the sniper takes Wilson’s role.
I hate to give up Wilson, and it would be great to piss away $2M and not worry about what Leggy’s contract costs us. But if the choice is to have to choose btwn Rinne and Suts, the Leggy deal needs doing. And, based on the math of the (my estimate) $5M needed in 2012-2013 for Rinne and Suts, the deal needs done to close that salary out.
by keepellisingoal on May 29, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa. whoa......
Nowhere in what you quoted in your first & second paragraphs did I state it was Legwand who you were trading for the sniper! It’s the buyout player I’m refering too! And it doesn’t matter how you a lot the players you’re moving in your scenario, because when it’s all said and done, you’ve moved Leggy, Wilson and probably Ellis to get the unnamed player you’re after! And if you think Wlison alone will get you this 5M sniper, c’mon, let’s get real.
And your mis-stating our payroll situatiion. We were at 51M at the end of this past season, I’m talking about a 2 to 3M payroll jump, completely in line with where the cap is headed. Keep in mind that Belak and SOB are likely gone, which is over 2M off the books from that 51M number. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it looks like your savings by dumping Legwand are 2.5M but your adding 1.5 for Sully over my not signing him at all and your .5M over where I’d want Ward and SK74 to be at plus you want Goc back at I’m supposing .75M. You’re actually .5M higher than my proposed budget which doesn’t keep Goc or Sully and has a slightly smaller raise for Ward and SK74. In terms of this upcoming season and next season, where is your huge savings in this plan of yours? Even if this scenario were possible, it’s not until 13/14 that your savings really materilize. By then Lombardi is gone and you have the needed savings anyway. And we both would include Wilson if it were for a true sniper, so we save the same money if we made that type of deal.
But more to the point, who are you going to go after on the trade market in the 5M range and acquire them for Wilson and maybe Ellis? Carter or Richards from the Flyers? IMO, they’re not worth that package and would be 25 goal guys when taken out of the Flyers offensive pressure type gameplan. I wouldn’t part with them for either of them. Parise is the only guy out there that’s even remotely obtainable (and that’s very remote) that I would give both Wilson and Ellis for.
The truth is that a mid-tier scoring addition is likely what we’ll be able to do this summer unless some team unexpectedly tries to move a legit scorer, which I have no idea who that would be and if they would be worth what we’d likely have to give up for them.
by Grizzledbear on May 29, 2011 1:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have to correct myself here........
According to www.nhlnumbers.com, our payroll ended up a tad over 52M this past season, not the 51M I stated above. This, of course, bolsters my position (which is why I’m correcting myself!), leaving a bump of just 2M next season to hit my 54M projected payroll.
by Grizzledbear on May 29, 2011 4:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
again, would you please read the post (not just mine, but your own)
you stated “and which $5M sniper do you think you can land with the package your offering”. Your statement that I am offering a “package” for the sniper means I’m suggesting a trade. That is not the case. As I’ve said each time, swap Leggy and likely Wilson (or d man Ellis) for a $2M guy the other team has and who no longer fits in their plans and they want to avoid paying him to play in the AHL for ~$2M. As I’ve said, it really doesn’t matter who that is. That is simply a cheaper buy out for us and helps the other team avoid the buy out and makes Leggy’s bloated salary less a burden on them so they are willing to do the deal. Its two steps: find a team that wants Leggy and reduce his effective salary for them by taking someone off their hands and buying him out. And the deal likely needs a sweetener, hence Wilson.
The sniper, as I have said each time, is a UFA – a free agent. Could a sniper be acquired by trade? I’ve acknowledged that but that has clearly not been the goal – the goal I have suggested is to unload Leggy’s salary and get a UFA sniper. A sniper through trade will cost us someone we rely on today. The goal in giving up Wilson (or Ellis) is to unload Leggy’s salary (we also benefit from Wilson’s salary being gone too – and since he was a healthy scratch nearly the entire playoffs and appears to have discipline problems, it doesn’t appear that big a loss, esp when replacing him with the sniper who will do what he should be doing, score).
As to spend, you’re also not reading what I wrote. We spent $3 – $5M more this past season by the end of the season. We added Fisher ($4.2M), we have Boom Boom,($1M+) and we added Blum. That’s $6M+ that we didn’t have when we started. We have Lombardi on long term IR, Cube on IR, etc etc, salaries we are alos paying. When we start next season and these guys are back from IR (Lombardi the question mark but he is paid either way), we’re up $5M over where we were at the outset of 2010-11 season. Where is that money coming from? Gate growth/rev share. Ok, that’s fair. We can buy out JP and reduce (or eliminate) Sully. Those savings ($6M) go to Weber, Kostitsyn and Ward. So where does the sniper money come from in your formula since you still have Leggy and Wilson on the payroff?
You’re getting the sniper money by spending another $4M on top of this past seasons $5M growth, knowing that in 2012-13, we will also need to spend another $6M (your number) on Rinne and Suter. That makes our total salary dollars over $60M a year (from under $50M/yr) in just 24 months. Nashville will never spend that. Our local owners need to a) not only avoid losing money, but b) get some return on their invested money. We just cannot spend with wonton abanadon.
I posted budget numbers above. There is $14M in savings followed by $13.58 million spent (with Sully at $1.5M of that). I’m spending $500k more on SK74 and Wardo that you suggest. Where I’m saving is on Leggy and Wilson. I’m saving $6.25M on both of them, from which one must substract the buy out I propose of the $2M player (which would be $667,000 a year for two to four years, depending on whether the guy has a one or two year contract remaining. That gives us $5.5 Million or so for the sniper. Combined with Wilson, Leggy is where we rake in the cash to do this and not spend more than where we ended last year, which was UP $5M, knowing we’re going to go up $5M more in 12-13 to retain Suter and Rinne.
What you cannot argue is that this team will substain a $60M/yr salary when it begins 2012-13. And unless you shed Leggy, or let Rinne or Suts go which is completely unacceptable, that’s where we are if we don’t deal with Leggy’s salary and shed.
by keepellisingoal on May 29, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
First things first..........
There’s a clear reason why I’m insinuating that you’re trading for this mythical sniper: there is no 5M sniper on the UFA market this summer! Brad Richards is the only prime offensive guy out there and he’s going to get 7+M from someone. This is the problem when you don’t list specifics when talking about who you’re looking to acquire. Some player isn’t just going to materialize out of nowhere and fit into your scenario. The only way you’re going to hope to acquire a legit scorer this summer is thru a trade, so the point I made is valid.
But the main problem is here is that you’re playing scrabble with salaries. Here’s your starting point for the 12/13 season with Weber at 7M and Suter and Rinne at 6M a piece, which seems to be a reasonable figure for all three….
Erat=4.5M
Fisher=4.2
Unknown sniper=5M
Weber=7M
Suter=6M
Rinne=6M
Lombardi=3.5M
HornQ=3M (slightly more actually)
Dumont buyout=1.33
Buyout player fron Leggy trade=2M?
Ward & SK74=4M? (I think that’s your #)
You have 12 players, two who are not on the roster due to buyouts, at 46.53M and you need to add 12 players for a 22 man roster with, if you’re going with my “outlandish” 54M payroll number, with 7.5M left to spend. How ‘ya gonna do that? Sorry, but your numbers simply don’t add up. The only way we keep both Rinne and Suter is if A) we don’t add your sniper or B) the owners get real generous with their pocketbooks (now who’s spending money like a drunken sailor, eh?). ;)
I’ll put my numbers for next seasonright on the table here…..
Erat=4.5M
Fisher=4.2M
Legwand=4.5M
Wilson=1.75
HornQ=3.083
Lombardi=3.5M
Dumont buyout=1.33M
Tootoo=1.25M
Smithson=.738M
Ward=1.75M (or we let him walk)
SK74=1.75M (Russia’s his only other option)
Geoffrion=1.1M
Spaling=.8M?
12 forwards (minus Dumont) for 30.251M
Weber=7M
Suter=3.5M
Klein=1.35M
Franson=.8M
Blum=.942M
Bouillon=1.35M
7th Dman=1M approx (whoever that will be)
7 Dmen at 15.942M
Rinne=3.4M
Lindback=.851M
2 goalies at 4.251M
That’s a 21 man roster at just at 50.44M, could be slightly under 50M depending on who the 7th Dman is, I’m figuring a bit high just to safe. At a 54M budget, there’s your 3 to 4M to try and obtain scoring help. If a mid-tier guy is all we want to add (or can add), your closer to a 52 to 53M payroll. My numbers add up, yours have some serious difficulties.
Bottomline is, as I said earlier, if we want to keep both Rinne and Suter for the 12/13 season, there is no way under your scenario or mine here that we can add a 5M scorer and keep both of them unless ownership goes all in with their cash. The difference is you’ll have a lot more holes to fill in your roster than I will.
by Grizzledbear on May 29, 2011 8:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You 2 need to get a room!
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to hockey equipment. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Hey, I don't swing that way!
by Grizzledbear on May 29, 2011 10:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
your proposed raises
I think your Weber, Suter, & Rinne proposed raises are about 500k too high (each). You’re also quoting the player’s “cap” number and not his actual salary. Erat is set to make 6m this season.
Also, we will trade J.P. in the offseason… not buy him out. He apparently waived his no movement clause before the deadline, but with the injuries to the team Poile decided to stay put. My bet is we bring back a conditional 6th rounder for him. I’d settle for a bag of pucks.
by Shawn Kehoe on May 29, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope your right!
I’d like nothing more than to be off by .5M on all of them, but I tend to think it’ll be the higher number I’ve got here, but we shall see.
Yes, I am going by the cap number because the actual payouts go up and down every season. We have a few players whose actual pay is higher next season (Erat and Rinne), but others go down the next season (Fisher and Erat). So, that’s why I use the cap number.
And I’d love to be able to trade Dumont, but his 4M contract isn’t going anywhere. He may indeed waive his NTC, but who is gonna take him on? Just don’t see that happening.
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 12:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
there's an easier way to do this ... its where my first post started...identify the savings needed for the sniper first....
first, the owners spent $3 – $5M more this past season than they started out spending when the season began (and the full $5Million will be felt next season, primarily in the form of Fisher).
second, they know they have an additonal $5Million (my number) in the summer of 2012 or $6Million (your number) to secure Peks and Suts. Choosing btwn these two players is NOT an option (I cannot imagine any fan or the organization wants that outcome – we MUST avoid it).
third, this summer we need to secure Weber (likely $3Million more) and need roughly $2.5Million more (my number – why get cheap by $500k?) for SK74 and Wardo – what do you replace them with if you get cheap where you’ll have the same confidence that the replacements works just as well – lets not be penny wise and pound foolish – both these guys are worth the money as they showed us this past season – certainly Leggy has not done the same either in season (SK74) or post season (Wardo).
fourth, having just spent an annualized $5M more this past season than we started with and knowing we’ll spend an additional amount of about the same in 2012 on Suts and Rinne, we really need to be total spend neutral this summer so we have a salary level of about $55/$56Million, not $60/$61Million going into 2012-2013.
fifth, we need a sniper, and an effective one, so it will cost us $5Million.
sixth, we pay for that sniper by identifying the players where we can save (Dumont, Sully, Leggy, Wilson) and then spending on those we need to keep that are already on the team (so we don’t slide backwards) which means Weber ($3M more); SK74 ($2M more); Wardo ($.5M more) and I’d suggest Goc (a modest $.25M more) because, frankly, the need to free up Leggy’s salary makes Goc more critical. That leaves $5Million more for the sniper while still spending ~$51Million. We don’t need to spend more and we all know we cannot if we are to keep Rinne and Suts the followng year.
It absolutely works. UNLESS your goal is to keep Leggy and/or Wilson on the team and this back and forth has simply been to refuse to discuss what this is really all about. Because its not that the numbers cannot work – they certainly can. For the math, see my first post above.
You do make a good point on the sniper: is there a $5Million UFA sniper available? I wish you had posed that question sooner. I looked at a UFA list several weeks ago and I believe there were several available. Maybe I am wrong, In which case it would take a trade. And that becomes difficult because what we do not need to be doing is parting with any of our key talent. And Leggy isn’t the trade material for the sniper becuase he’s so grossly overpaid. So, to acquire a sniper by trade would cost us a productive asset other than Leggy. And that would not be good.
The math here, however, absolutely works to land a $5Million UFA sniper and not spend more this summer than we spent at season’s end (save the raises people like Erat will receive but ownership has planned for that – this is about not adding another $4Million to the $51Million they ended the season at; so that in 2012, we can add some dollars and hold on to Suts and Rinne).
Hope above helps because we a) should not be spending more or it jeopardizes Peks and Suts next summer and b) we have to have the money for a sniper freed up, regardless. And that means moving Leggy (and Wilson who isn’t producing what everyone says he would – or we wouldn’t need the scorer, it would be him; and it hasn’t been).
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
It works IF you can trade a high priced player..........
Sure, if someone wants to take Legwand back in return for (fill in the blank) it would work, but short of that, the numbers I put forth don’t lie.
Once you get past Brad Richards, this years UFA forwards are topped by Upshall, Ryder, Laich (sp), Vrbata, Jussi Jokinen and some lesser players. Cole is going to re-sign with the Canes and Leino likely to stay with Philly. A legit scorer just isn’t on that list once you get past Richards. Not bad 2nd tier options, but not studs either.
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 1:15 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I should add
As one can clearly see from the salaries I listed, your at over 46M without Leggy or Wilson’s salaries included, just the buyout for the proposed player coming back in return for Leggy and the 5M sniper. It just doesn’t work if you intend to keep both Rinne and Suter unless they take BIG discounts! Highly unlikely though.
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 1:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s 46M for 10 roster players (just to clarify).
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 1:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
by listing NEXT year's FULL season salaries, you're confusing what we spent this past year....
….as I’ve repeatedly said, we spent $3 – $5Million more last year than we started to spend when the season began. In acquiring Fisher, the owners sent a message (a great one) to the fans and to Weber. But next year, he is full price (as is Geoffrion, Haluschuk, Blum).
By listing next years full salaries, you are distorting what I laid out because I sought to remain budget neutral and focused on what we just spent last year. You are siting full year salaries when I spoke in terms of the total spend that included partial salaries to these players this past year. When my goal is to remain budget neurtral (as it is), and I identify $14M in savings and spend $13.58Million (including adding a sniper), I’ve kept it neutral – no additional spending.
Give ownership some credit: as noted above, they know those full salaries are coming next year for Fisher, Geoffrion, etc. what I think we can all expect is that they don’t wnat additional spending, esp knowing that Suter and Rinne are coming.
the key disagreement you and I are having is that you want to spend above those full annual salaries for the sniper. I took a different approach and laid out the players where we can save salary dollars and then outlined how those salary dollars can be spent, includng having $5 Million for a sniper. Its all laid out above and it actually saves $400k.
The question you need to face is: Is David Legwand and Colin Wilson worth a talented $5Million sniper? Becasue that is the question based on your budget listing them as both on the team. Forget about who the sniper is, we have to have the ability to pay for that person. And if we have Legwand and WIlson’s salary available because we moved them, we have the funds to do that.
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Arrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!!!!!
It doesn’t matter what we spent last season, it’s what our salaries are for your proposed 12/13 team that is at issue! The 12 players listed (2 of whom are buyout players according to your scenario) alone cost over 46M. That’s a fixed number among 12 players (10 actual players) who are core members of the roster. You can’t just add and subtract from various player movements the way that you’re doing here, as it doesn’t address what the actual salary structure of the players that will be on the roster, with Leggy & Wilson already taken out of that equation. Even if you unload both of those two players for the scorer being discussed without taking on a buyout player as part of that deal, it only leaves you with another 2M work with (9.5M to sign 12 additional players on a 54M budget). You just can’t squeeze the 5M sniper and both Rinne and Suter at an estimated 6M each into that budget.
Next season we have a bit more payroll freedom due to Suter & Rinne still being under their current deals and the initial room created by a Dumont buyout, which is a big savings in 11/12 but bites us a little bit in 12/13, plus dropping Sully’s deal as well. But unless payroll is boosted by at least a few million next season and certainly for the 12/13 season, the ability to add a 5M scorer and keep Rinne and Suter just isn’t possible unless you find someone to take a Legwand or Erat with little salary coming back in return.
As to your last paragraph, of course it’s possible to add a 5M scorer if you move Legwand and Wilson’s salaries, but who is going to give you a bonafide 30 goal scorer for them? In fact, as I’ve brought up numerous times, a package of Wilson and Ellis would be what would get some teams attention, but who wants to take on Leggy’s salary in return for one of their best players? It’s just not a plausible scenario.
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 10:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you are arguing with YOURSELF....
1) In your first couple posts, YOU suggested spending more money this coming season for the sniper ABOVE what we are already spending. I’m the one who said it was unwise, that we should be salary neutral in our spend and NOT spend more than we already are because we just saw a significant increase last season and will in 2012 for Suts and Rinne.
2) I outlined specifically how to get the sniper while not spending more than we already are – and it means dumping Legwand so we actually have someone on the ice who is close to producing for the team commensurate with that type of salary. In short, a difference maker.
3) You now act like the owners do not know what they are spending in 2011-12 and that it will be a surprise (ie, that the $51M we just spent included PARTIAL season salaries just as I’ve noted, and that it will rise a little when full season salaries kick in this coming season).
4) You’re challenging me for spending beyond current budget when I’ve shown you exactly how NOT to spend beyond current budget – it’s your suggestion that we can spend more – read your first several posts in response to my salary neutral outline of how to land/pay for a sniper.
5) You are spending so much you yourself believe we have to choose btwn Rinne and Suts in 2012.
6) I never suggested that we trade for the sniper – you keep bringing that up as if it’s being suggested (I recognized it could be done but every post I’ve made on this says lets unload Leggy and Wilson to free up salary to use for a UFA).
7). Raises for Weber, Sergei, Wardo, Goc and the landing of a sniper at $5M can be done salary neutral this year so that next year we haven’t broken the bank and can retain Suter and Rinne. But you have to deal with Leggy’s salary to do this. By not dealing with Legwand, you seem very ready to either a) not land the sniper or b) land the sniper but then lose Suter or Rinne for lack of money because you’re holding on to Legwand. That’s not what this hockey club needs.
Can you be honest? This isn’t about the salary neutral math – you cannot be missing what I’m suggesting because I’m saying it over and over and over - it’s a neutral salary approach that allows us to sign Weber, Kostitsyn and Ward with raises, Goc with a small raise and also have $5M left over for a sniper. Forget who the sniper is, the money has to be there to pay him. And I showed how to do that without spending any more money than the team is already obligated to spend this coming season.
But I did it by dumping Leggy. And that is sacrilege to you Leggy worshippers.
And that is the reason we’re still at this – you just need to admit you think he’s God and worth more than the scorer everyone else says we need, a talented winger/scorer/Kariya like guy. For which you should be willing to honestly say that, in your opinion, “Leggy is more important than that.” And that’s fine, that’s your view, but for gosh sakes, man-crush-up and admit it!
Funny thing is, no hockey commentator/player/coach/etc would give your view the time of day. As DFTB reminds us above, certainly not Poile or Trotzy in their views on Legwand.
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear heavens...........
I’ve tried to be nice about all this, but you clearly are a very immature and not very astute individual. The comment about me being a Legwand lover is of particular amusement. You invoked DFTB’s name, why don’t you ask him about my views on Leggy. He reads what people write, you clearly do not.
And it is you who changed your position mid-stream when I pointed out to you that a 5M sniper didn’t exsist on this years UFA market, which begs the question: who on earth makes a dogmatic argument without even verifying the main point of the that argument! You’ve yet to actually mention a real, live player who you would pursue with your scheme of the century…….specifics aren’t your strong suit apparently.
And you have yet to answer the clear question of how you can fill a 22 man roster with the contracts that WILL be on the payroll for the 12/13 season under your own scenario. This isn’t hard stuff! And for you to say that I’m somehow busting the salary structure of the team when you A) can’t fill out your own roster with the same 54M budget I’m suggesting and B) would have to spend more than I’m suggesting to achieve your grand scheme is beyond absurdity.
There’s clearly no point continuing this with you because it’s clear you have no desire or ability to see past the inanity of your own argument.
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 7:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
nice response to an argument and position I've never taken...
Im done with responding to you other than to say that I’m not here to “fill out the roster”….smarter people than me (Poile and Trotz) have already done that.
My post was merely to say, hey, we need a scorer and lets be honest, Leggy underperfoms and if we can get rid of Legwand’s salary, we can add that scorer at $5M/yr.
I then outlined four players (Legwand, Sully, Dumont and WIlson) who comprise $14Million in salary and how to provide the raises to Weber, Sergie, Wardo and slightly to Goc whle having $5M left over. That’s all I sought to do. All references to salary and roster were to demonstrate that we could land the winger by relying ONLY on these four salaries while simultaneously givnig the raises to Weber, Wardo, Sergie and slightly raise to Goc. Essentially, to show its do-able.
The discussion about a roster is one I believe the team is comfortable with at its present benchmark. If you wnat to discuss that for your own purposes, by all means do but it has no relevenace to what I first posted and have been restating every time you mis-state it.
btw, unlike this last post of yours that attacks me personally, I’ve avoided that with you. on the other hand, your first resposne to me had the followiing title:
ITS NEVER GONNA HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Icaps are yours)
Your second response title was:
To many variables to ever work out
Your third response:
Take a chill pill.
My responses have been to explain why what was outlined as to salaries woudl work. And, when you suggested it, to state that it was complicated but could work. Sam acknowledged same. You don’t have to like it. You can disagree. You can also say “Leggy is worth more than the $5M sniper”. That’s your opinion. Unlike this last post of yours, I never once attacked your right to have an opinion. I did tell you to reac what I’m writing (and what you yourself wrote as you keep commenting contrary to both but that’s not an attack).
I sure hope this site has stooped to banning people like DFTB just because they have a contrary opinion……that would be a real shame.
by keepellisingoal on May 30, 2011 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It might work
but I just don’t like trades where you use a prospect as leverage to take on a bad salary…unless you’re the team receiving the prospect.
I hope it does but its going to take a lot of work....
….agree on the prospects but if we want to retain Weber, Kostitsyn, Suter and Rinne we must free up salary dollars. And the only way the math works is for JP to be bought out, Leggy moved and Sully reduced. One could let Sully go outright but a) that loses a great guy who can still play and energize and make dangerous our fourth line. If he’ll play for $1.5 Million, its money well spent. ANd still generates almost $3Million in savings (and we know who gets that, the Captain! and justly so!)
by keepellisingoal on May 29, 2011 4:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I am glad someone prefaces the trading Wilson subject (with for a stud forward) because he is still young and he has shown flashes of what a skilled forward he can be. Plus how many other power forwards are there on the Preds? So I have to agree with you, that unless we are getting something good, it shouldn’t even be considered. I feel a bit of the same way about Franson, like people forget all about his offensive upside and puck movement, besides the fact he is absolutely huge. Could you imagine him and Ekholm on a line? That would almost be bigger than Rinne and Lindback. I know we probably need to trade a defenseman, but prospects play and size does not always transfer to the NHL, and do not want the team to count their eggs before they hatch.
meet me half way… I think that is Legwands strategy ;)
Canucks new slogan: Show us some hits, we'll show you our tits
if only he would do that with his salary - then we'd be getting somewhere!
by keepellisingoal on May 28, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 28, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
My only comment here is.........
and this goes for the team as a whole: if we get more talented players to play alongside the Legwand’s and Erat’s, they’ll put up better numbers as they did when they had Kariya on their line and had another good scoring line (Sully/Arnott/Dumont) to keep teams from focusing on just their line. Those two lines at that time were head and shoulders better than any line we currently have right now. Add a quality forward to this mix and all of a sudden the 1st line becomes better, the 2nd line becomes better due to a current 1st liner dropping down a line and the 3rd line becomes better by a current 2nd liner dropping down a line as well. I think I’ll call it the domino principle! :)
So you’re saying a Hartnell for Legwand trade may work?
Great piece. I think a lot of defensive players get criticized because people don’t see the work they do. It’s hard for the average fan to remember great shut-down defense for forwards. It’s a lot easier to look at point totals and complain. Oh, and to see #2 overall draft pick and complain.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on May 28, 2011 8:58 PM EDT reply actions
all true but the problem with Leggy isn't that he cannot play....
its that he is not playing anywhere near a $4.5Million salary and we need those salary dollars.
by keepellisingoal on May 28, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
His salary and his salary alone is the reason for the harsh criticism. While no one can blame him for taking the contract we can certainly criticize him for not living up to it.
I criticize him for being lazy.
Not cause he gets paid too much.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 29, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t JUST criticize him for being lazy..
So, my tactic with conservation of apex predators is to get people excited and take them to where they live.
~Steve Irwin
There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
~Joe Strummer
I know...
…I didn’t say I don’t criticize him for other things too. But laziness is his most significant sin :)
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 29, 2011 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
lazy is the wrong word. Leggy has never been lazy.
Jason Arnott… now there’s a lazy dude.
Legwand is just inept at doing more than one thing on the ice at a time (as someone earlier pointed out).
by Shawn Kehoe on May 29, 2011 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I like lazy :)
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 30, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll gladly pay Legwand $4.5 million to be a two-way player. I don’t see how this is “too much” money.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Jun 3, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Here my beef with Leggy
He’s goes from having a buzz cut to having a full head of hair in, like, a week. It’s absurd.
The whole idea of him being “a good overpaid player” is something that I’ve thought for a while. He got kind of lucky and had a great contract year and now it’s kind of costing us but I like Leggy. He’s the original Predator…
But seriously. his hair growth rate is awfully impressive.
I live in the OC.
The one in OH.
Also Sam
WHERE DID YOU FIND YOUR PROFILE PICTURE?!?!?!?!?1
THAT’S A GLORIOUS PICTURE!!!!!
I live in the OC.
The one in OH.
How can you say Arnott made the Preds better? The first year we get rid of him, the first time ever we make it out of the first round
Canucks new slogan: Show us some hits, we'll show you our tits
by Creeping Death on May 29, 2011 12:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Spaling scored 14 points this season; Legwand scored the inverse of those digits, 41. Yes, Legwand gets more ice-time, but Spaling gets easier match-ups, against third and fourth-line players.
Spaling’s linemates are also third and fourth liners while Legwand plays with first and second line talent. The only valid comparison you could make is if Spaling and Legwand had their roles reversed.
Spaling and Goc are still much better values than Legwand.
I also disagree that Preds fans are spoiled by Poile being able to sign guys to below market price. Poile has overpaid as much as he’s gotten deals on players. Hornqvist was overpaid based on one year of production. There was a direct comp in Moulson yet Hornqvist got more. Rinne was also overpaid based on his production the year before. He probably should have been in the 2M range rather than 3.5-4M, but unlike Legwand, Rinne lived up to his contract.
Good assessment
I didn’t read any other comments, so I apologize in advance if I’m repeating anything.
I’m one to fall into the Legwand hater-aid camp, but I believe your assessment is fair. My biggest issue with him (and Erat) are their bloated contracts. If these two contracts effect the resigning of Weber, Suter, or Rinne I’m going to even more pissed than I already am. Legwand should be a $3.75 per year player and Erat about a $3.5. I understand the “tough minutes” argument, but why not just sign solid defensive guys to lesser contracts and put them up against the other team’s top lines? Legwand is a 3rd line defensive center at best and has proven this year after year. Erat a second line winger.
Goc/Spaling – Goc has the unmistakable ability to make those around him better. This is a very valuable trait, but lets not get it mixed up. He’s going to be your team’s #2 center with some above average wingers beside him. Spaling should be the winger for the #3 defense line with Legwand. He can take Joel Ward’s spot after Wardo signs with Toronto.
In the end, lets all hope Lombardi gets healthy for the 2011-2012 season b/c he’s the closest thing we have to a true #1 center on this team.
Fish/Lombardi/Hornqvist
Erat/Goc/Kostitsyn
Spaling/Legwand/Tootoo
Geoffrion/Wilson/Halischuk
forgot smitty
put smitty on the 3rd line wing and bump spals to 4th line with Boomer or Hali alternating scratches.
by Shawn Kehoe on May 29, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Who is Lombardi?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on May 29, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Dang, another hate Leggy thread.
So here is my 2 cents: Leggy gets a bad rap because of his contract. If he made 2.75mil, everyone would be reasonably happy with his play.
I won’t call him lazy, but for some unknown reason, it is easy to tell when leggy isn’t giving the type of effort he needs to give. Maybe its because he is not physical, maybe because his play in the corners is inconsistant, maybe its his easy flow skating ability….I don’t know what “it” is, but I can tell when his effort isn’t what it should be.
I remember the Leggy, in our younger years when we battled for a playoff spot, the effort he gave when he took a young team and played us to a point of sniffin the playoffs, got hurt, and we fell off the face of the planet. THAT leggy gave the type of effort i’d like to see.
Regardless, he is an asset to the team…..he could be a larger asset, no doubt….I believe he has the talent.
I will meet you half way on David Legwand…. as long as you are in the western united states and we leave him there
Canucks new slogan: Show us some hits, we'll show you our tits
by Creeping Death on May 30, 2011 12:29 AM EDT reply actions
Give me Goc all day over Legwand. I was impressed with his playoff performance but where has that effort been since 98? Marcel brings it all season. We are a much better team with him in the circle and on the boards. I will say Leggy does a lot that stats will never show but at times he hits cruise and for lack of terms makes laps on the ice.
Concise summary of what has taken almost a hundred posts and 2 articles to say.
Man, did this discussion take a left turn at Understandingsville, I mean, how in the hell am I supposed to be working while reading dissertation, citations, article of the confederacy, War and Peace, Crime and Punishment, the Bible, Dianetics, and GrizzedBear, SWFP, and DFTB.
My brain and vocabulary hurt now, thanks a bunch. haha
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 30, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Edit:
GrizzledBear and of course Burton and Sam Page…..and on and on, and on…
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 30, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I got mentioned twice........
I must be special! :D
by Grizzledbear on May 30, 2011 3:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Calm down...
Just misspelled the first time…..
and yes, you are a unique snowflake :Dhahahaha
by HardCorePredFan316 on May 30, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. Seriously?
Am I ever glad I missed this while it was happening.
What a mess. How unfortunate. Don’t remember who intimated it now, but hey guys, none of you have David Poile on speed dial (that is, unless @TheViewFrom111 is reading this…).
Like him or lump him, Leggy is a Pred until he isn’t.
End. Of. Story.
And BTW, I don’t worship at the First Church of Legwand. My membership is at Reality Chapel.

by 
























