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Can "Predator Hockey" really win the Stanley Cup?

Yesterday, Ryan Porth posted an article over at Smashville 24/7 that got heads nodding and tongues wagging, over the question of whether "Predator Hockey" can win a Stanley Cup. It outlined the defense, goaltending & hard work mantra which has become the cornerstone of this franchise, and the confidence that the Nashville leadership has in its ability to put the team over the top.

...the Preds believe they are close to a Cup simply by playing hockey their own way. For the majority of the 82-game slate, they will outwork the opposition, win or lose. Some nights they'll completely shut down the opposition; sometimes they'll do the ol' rope-a-dope and pounce on mistakes caused by forechecking. You can always bank on that aggressive forecheck to throw other teams off their game.

Strong defense is the backbone of the Preds' success. With Weber and Ryan Suter currently the top defensive duo in the league, and other young talents coming through the pipeline, the blue-line won't be a weakness anytime soon.
    

But has a team really won the Cup like that in recent years? Is there any empirical evidence that "the Predator Way" can really lead to a championship?

Star-divide

Consider the following, a list of offensive performance by Stanley Cup champions as compared to the Nashville Predators (since they made the playoffs the first time):

 Season  Cup Champ  Goals For   Rank   Predators GF   Preds Rank 
 2010-11  Boston Bruins 246 8th 219 21st
 2009-10  Chicago Blackhawks 271 3rd 225 17th
 2008-09  Pittsburgh Penguins 264 6th 213 24th
 2007-08  Detroit Red Wings 257 3rd 230 15th
 2006-07  Anaheim Ducks 258 6th 272 4th
 2005-06  Carolina Hurricanes 294 3rd 259 10th
 2003-04  Tampa Bay Lightning 245 3rd 216 12th
 2002-03  New Jersey Devils 216 14th
 2001-02  Detroit Red Wings 251 2nd
 2000-01  Colorado Avalanche 270 4th
 1999-2000  New Jersey Devils 251 2nd
 1998-99  Dallas Stars 236 8th
 1997-98  Detroit Red Wings 250 2nd
 1996-97  Detroit Red Wings 253 6th
 1995-96  Colorado Avalanche 326 2nd
 1994-95  New Jersey Devils 136* 13th
 1993-94  New York Rangers 299 4th
 1992-93  Montreal Canadiens 326 9th
 1991-92  Pittsburgh Penguins 343 1st
 1990-91  Pittsburgh Penguins 342 2nd

*Shortened season

A few noteworthy things jump out here:

  • In the last 20 years, no team finishing in the bottom half of the league in Goals For has won the Cup.
  • Only once have the Predators outscored the eventual Cup champ, in 2007.
  • The Great Fire Sale of 2007 gutted this team of offensive talent, which took another hit in 2008 with the Radulov defection.

Preds offense remains mired in the bottom half

What concerns me is the lack of emphasis to develop an above-average NHL offense. There doesn't appear to be much urgency for bringing in proven talent up front, and when the power play was discussed at the Skate of the Union, nothing new was brought to the table, either. I believe the quote from Barry Trotz was along the lines of "eventually it will break through". Um, OK.

I admire Trotz as a coach and the patient, developmental methods used by the Predators organization, but I am deeply concerned about the situation with the forwards heading into 2011-12. To me, it recalls the summer of 2008, when we heard a lot about young players like Ryan Jones and Patric Hornqvist stepping into major roles. That didn't work out so well, and to quote Yogi Berra, this feels like deja vu all over again.

At this point, the Top 6 forwards look something like this: David Legwand, Mike Fisher, Martin Erat, Patric Hornqvist, Sergei Kostitsyn, Colin Wilson. There's a lot of hope built into any assumption that this sextet is playoff-caliber, let alone capable of contending for a Stanley Cup (hope, because they'd all need to stay healthy and enjoy productive seasons). A supporting cast consisting of guys like Jerred Smithson, Nick Spaling, Matt Halischuk, Jordin Tootoo, and Blake Geoffrion isn't going to push the Preds into the top half of the league offensively, either.

As one user recently noted in the comments here (and I apologize for not recalling who it was), the addition of Mike Fisher is often talked about as a huge plus for the team, and given the context of having Matthew Lombardi's salary weighing on them last season, that was true at the time. But in the end, what we've had is really a transition at center from Jason Arnott to Matthew Lombardi to Mike Fisher, and as much as we all admire Fisher's style of play and work ethic, that's a step backwards offensively.

The acquisition of guys like Kyle Wilson and Niclas Bergfors is encouraging, but they're certainly not going to drive major change in the minor roles they are likely destined for. I wouldn't mind seeing Cal O`Reilly between them to try and create a 3rd scoring line, but instead I'm afraid we'll see more hustle & bang from guys like Zack Stortini.

Nashville may have trouble even playing The Predator Way

But wait, the "Predator Way" loyalist says - it can be OK to have a mediocre offense if the defense & goaltending are rock solid, as they surely will be, right?

That assumes all of the following:

All 3 of those carry a considerable downside, with perhaps the baby blueline being the riskiest in the short term. I'm excited as anyone about Ryan Ellis, Roman Josi and Mattias Ekholm, but they need time before being relied upon to play major roles at the NHL level. Who, for example, would man the PK?

In short, I don't think it's certain that the Predators will be all that great defensively, especially in light of the departure of Joel Ward and Shane O`Brien.

Don't panic... yet

What would soothe my nerves would be to know that something is being done to address the offensive deficiencies of this team more than just bringing in sub-$1 million 4th-liners and hoping that kids blossom into snipers. If, as is being bandied about, the Preds can't afford to have decent offensive talent along with the Big 3 of Weber, Suter, and Rinne... then one of them may have to go (today's afternoon notes will have more on that).

The current formula can carry the team into the playoffs consistently, but once there, are the Predators really prepared to battle and beat the best? Goaltending and defense can indeed be advantages, but the hard work angle probably isn't - at playoff time, everybody's motivated.

Is there time and budget space for David Poile to address these concerns? Absolutely. But if we get close to the opening of the regular season and we're still hearing about how high the upside is for this team of young kids, or that defense and goaltending can carry the Preds to the next level competitively, prepare yourselves for a very bumpy ride.

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But what about the stellar defense and goaltending?????

Do the numbers look any more promising if you compare GF/GA or GF-GA or some such? Just wondering.

by howdy2u on Jul 20, 2011 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

The Arnott → Lombardi → Fisher part was by GrizzledBear over here.

by OddManRush on Jul 20, 2011 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

  Thank you for the recognition………I feel loved. :)

  Excellent article by this websites proprietor. Not much one could add to it. The offensive numbers of the Cup winners listed is overwhelming evidence that we need to address our offensive shortcomings in a serious manner, not by picking players off the scrap heap on the cheap.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 3:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No problem! I remembered your post and all the discussion it generated in the wake of the Skate of the Union.

by OddManRush on Jul 20, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

GOOD ARTICLE

we arent likely to win big w/o scoring. my biggest hope was replacing peterson w/ a real offensive mind on the bench. our defence has shown if you play the right system well you can play good team defence. i believe the same is true on the other end of the rink. in the right system you can play better than average offense even w/ average players. have some size, forecheck hard, get to the net, shoot the puck. but, we dont seem to be nearly as committed to playing the right way in the opponents zone as we are in ours.

by predswilrule on Jul 20, 2011 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

A lot of people

seen to be concerned about winning the Cup. That is the ultimate goal after all. But how many teams are there that are always in contention that haven’t won it? How many teams that haven’t won it (in a generation, at least) have dedicated fanbases? Do we want to win the Cup? Oh yes, we do. And seeing non traditional markets like Carolina, Tampa and Anaheim win the Cup just raises the desire and expectation to win the Cup.

But before we get all antsy about whether or not we have a team that can win the Cup, we have to remember WE ALMOST LOST THIS TEAM four years ago. Atlanta, a far bigger market than ours, just lost theirs. Phoenix, another far bigger market than ours, could lose theirs any second now.

Before we complain about whether of not we can win the Cup, we have to remember this team’s number one goal is to EXIST. To work with a smaller financial base than many teams have. And it is succeeding. It is strengthening its fanbase. It is strengthening its financial base. It does that by providing a winning team, one of the best winning teams since the lockout. Has is brought us a lot of post-season success? Not yet. Maybe it will one day. Maybe very soon.

Maybe the system we have is the best way to compete with the lower budget team we have, we can afford. Till we can get to where we can fully compete financially with other teams, the system we have will be what we need. Many other teams that spend more would love to have the success we have. Will it take us to the next step? I don’t know. We will need more offense for sure, but that offense may be right around the corner.

But if some fasn aren’t happy with the way this team is constructed, the amount of payroll it can handle, maybe it would have been better if Balsillie had bought the team.

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 3:36 PM EDT reply actions  

That's an excellent point

The “win a championship, anything less is failure” mindset that has crept into American sports culture is one of my biggest pet-peeves. The Preds do an admirable job of punching above their weight, no question about it.

That’s why the context of this entire piece is about whether they can win a Cup under the existing model, since that was the topic of discussion as raised at Smashville 24/7.

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!

by Dirk Hoag on Jul 20, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tend to think of this team being like the Devils of a few years ago…. Now to go out and get that scoring talent that made them complete!

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry...

Arnott and Langenbrunner went to Ain’t Louis….Hahaha

by HardCorePredFan316 on Jul 20, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zing! Somebody here would like Parise, and I’m with them on that. But there is always a price to pay…

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

  It should be noted about the Devils, that even though in two of their Cup winning years they were just above the middle of the pack in scoring, they were not only 2nd in scoring in their 99/00 Cup win, but also 1st in 00/01 when they lost in the finals to the Avs in 7 games. The Devils were good to great in all facets of their game, not just defensively.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 5:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

...anything else is failure.

I like the Predators way, but I would love to have more offense! I agree the championship does not dictate the only success a team can experience. We, of all people, should know that coming off of a successful post season that saw us climb the first round wall!

On that note, however, it’s disappointing to see us lose important guys and not make any moves to replace them with equal or greater talent. I will be here every day, throwing around speculative remarks with the rest of you five or ten years from now when we’re deep in the second year of a rebuild with a record below .50, but I don’t think that needs to be now. I’m afraid every other off season feels like a mini-rebuild, though.

This all completely sucks, too, because I’m such a homer that I don’t want anyone to get fired I just want them to be accosted with truck loads of spending money and possibly a vision from the angel of offense. Oh well, what are you gonna do, right?

Gonna miss you Joel Ward...

Go Predmirals!

by Poiju on Jul 20, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

We didn't lose anything that cannot be replaced....

… did we lose anyone that we were counting on?

The biggest thing we have lost is DEPTH. That is the thing that bothers me.

That and the reluctance to get ANY kind of scoring.

by djzielin on Jul 20, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

  Don’t discount chemistry and leadership in the equation. Guys like Ward and SOB were solid teammates for us, as were Sully and Goc. Their skills can be replaced, but we really haven’t even done that yet, let alone replace their locker room presence.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 5:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

My point exactly.

It’s not that they can’t be replaced, even if the chemistry takes time to develop. It’s that they haven’t been replaced. This concerns me quite a bit more than our lack of obtaining a top 6 guy. Until we replace what we’ve lost, even depth, I don’t see how we can build a better team than we had.

Gonna miss you Joel Ward...

Go Predmirals!

by Poiju on Jul 20, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait!! this is what I’ve been saying about Pekka and you’re willing to give that leadership and locker room presence up for just-some-guy-in-net. I call unfair!

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

  I’ve never really considered Rinne to be part of the leadership core of the team, more due to the nature of the position than anything else. So your objection is denied! :p

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 11:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Just cuz you haven’t considered it doesn’t mean it’s not true. So my objection is un-denied! :)

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

  I’m a goalie, so my veto of your objection stands. :)

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

That’s you answer to everything. “I’m a goalie.” :)

I resubmit my objection. The guys take confidence from his confidence. He is a leader. So is Roloson. So was Osgood. So is Luo…Oh. Well. Maybe not that one. :P

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

  You, of all people, should pay heed to what a goalie says. ;)

  Just the nature of playing goal makes it a different animal than being a skater. You’re not on the bench with your teammates or hearing the coaches give instructions……..kind of in your own little world when the game is going on. There’s a reason why there’s only been one goalie named captain of his team, and we all know how well that worked out in Vancouver…….

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 6:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I get that. And I understand why goalies aren’t given Cs and As. And you of all people :) should know the effect that a goalie’s general demeanor, body language, commitment, willingness to sacrifice, etc., etc., both on the ice and off, can have on a team. There are goalies whose leadership and character is critical to their team and that Pekka is one of those guys. Those things count, too.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since you haven’t responded I’m going to go ahead and say:

I WON THIS ONE!!!

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

  No, I just didn’t want to ruin your goalie fantasy. :p

  A goalie leads by stopping the puck. Once he stops doing that well, it doesn’t really matter what else he does as far as leadership goes, where as a skaters skill can drop off but he can still be a leader (e.g. someone like Mark Recchi). That’s basically what I’m saying.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 11:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Okay not sure how the age thing applies here, but if you’re saying poorly skilled goalies can’t be leaders, I’m saying that’s not my point. It’s not about skill as much as it is about character. A lot of times leadership positions are given to guys (skaters) based on their skills and not their character and that can be a disaster. You simply can’t reasonably dismiss Rinne’s character—calm, confident, committed, and other non-alliterative traits—and its impact on the team.

Maybe its because you watch Cam Ward too much. ;) Go watch Roli for a while and see what he gives his team(s).

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 22, 2011 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also

I’m in the middle of writing a post for Raw Charge on the nature of leadership (coincidence, I swear). Can I quote your posts in that. I’d give you credit of course, even though the idea of giving you credit annoys me greatly. ;) P.S. the thrust of the piece is that you are wrong and I am right, but you could probably guess that.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 22, 2011 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

  My attorney’s have warned me against allowing any Bolts fan of using any of my writings in anything other than a glowing and adoring fashion. But as well thought out and elucidating as those writings are, what other way could they be used? ;D

  It doesn’t matter what kind of character a goalie displayed, if he doesn’t make the saves he’s not going to instill confidence in his teammates. A veteran skater who may have lost a step or doesn’t score like he used to can still take on a leadership role. Let the goalie stop the puck and let the other guys do the rah, rah stuff (we’ve got enough pressure on us already!). :)

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 22, 2011 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I’ll let you know when I’ve posted it so you can go over there and point out just how wrong I am in a completely new forum. ;)

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 22, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

  You assume I have time for another forum, do you? I may need a stipend to participate. :)

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 22, 2011 1:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The only reward I can give you is the chance to growl in public.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 22, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

  Growl to a larger audience you mean? :)

  I’ll have to check with Dirk in case there’s any eclusivity contract for my growling here. :D

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 22, 2011 1:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Can the Preds win with this existing model?

1 in a 1000.

I’ll tell ya what Dirk, and anyone else that wants to read, failure is not winning the Cup in Canada as well as the US.

Even more so!

The thing that frustrates much of Canada is that hockey is LIFE up there. That they can sell out every game and still not finish first frustrates every man, woman, and child that cheers for a team that is under the flying leaf. That the Preds can make the playoffs as well as survive, puzzles them to no end.

If half the Canadians team had the moxie and the smarts the Preds have in running a team, it would be a dynasty by now.

This is why fans (myself included) are getting frustrated with the Preds ‘model’.

Invest in the team, invest for the fanbase, this team could take the whole thing.

The peeps in charge just have to take a chance, and this could be bigger then they could ever imagine.

What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...

by BrianAdsFan on Jul 20, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea, take this leadership/front office and put them in the Canadian market with those resources and the Red Wings’ fans would cry at how good that team would be.
But luckily they are here, and Poile and Trotz like playing hockey on hard or in NHL 11 vernacular: “All-Star” difficulty.

Bringing the Cup here would be one of the greatest feats in the history of professional hockey.

Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?

by DonBorvio on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think they play on “Superstar” difficulty. (I play alotta NHL 11, I need my hockey fix.)

"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster

by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Jul 21, 2011 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I refuse to live in a (hockey) world where the only measure of success is the Cup

If that’s true, every year 29 teams are abject failures. If its true, the Detroit Red Wings sucked for most of their history. If its true, Paul Kariya, Alex Ovechkin, and Jarome Iginla are poor players.

The Cup is the ultimate goal and it means so much in part because so few people ever get there. There is a lot that this team can do this year to be considered a success. There is a lot of progress that needs to be made. Let’s focus on the journey for a while rather than complain that we currently have a team that won’t win the Cup right away.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dirk I got nothing but...

….. Love for ya brother! But that mentality has always been prevalent in American sports. Vince Lombardi, Bear Bryant, George Steinbrenner, Woody Hayes, Al Davis and I can list even more of coaches, who had that mentality. It is a lot more in our faces now than it was back in the day but the mentality was the same. We know what the Predators weakness are. Weber/Suter shut down the Sedins the problem was no one could keep Eric Kesler in check. That is what we need an extra bullet in the gun to get it done offensively.

Just because there's an absence of evidence doesn't mean there's an evidence of absence.

by jmkiii58 on Jul 21, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

  Well said, especially that last sentence! :)

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 6:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think we're pretty much past that now

At some point we have to get past the “we’re just glad to have a team” mentality and start having expectations of our team. There’s nothing wrong with that.

by Predaceous on Jul 20, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

We’re not past the financial difficulties. Till the ownership isn’t looking for another investor, till we aren’t overly concerned about the amount of season ticket holder and sellouts and average attendance and can pay up to and over the cap (i.e. we don’t have to trade off Lombardi just to have cash to spend).. till we are past all that and have solid finances, we aren’t past it.

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel more comfortable somewhere in between these two points. I recognize the financial difficulties and constraints but I also want DP to take more risks than he has in the past.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 20, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

  We’re no different from about half the other teams in the league as far as worrying about attendence, etc. We know about what our payroll will look like and that we should have some room to make an improvement on offense. There’s enough money left to do something, whether there’s the desire to do so I’m not totally convinced of.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 5:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I still think the large cap raise....

… killed us.

No one needs to get rid of higher salaries much any more. That means no significant trades (except for Philly) or waivers (which wouldn’t come until MUCH later)

by djzielin on Jul 20, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

  I think you’re on target there, which is why I’ve said I think Poile misplayed the UFA market this time around. If the cap had just gone up to, say 62M (still a 3M increase) it would have likely made more players available to us at a better price tag. Once it was known the cap was going up over 64M, it was going to be a feeding frenzy on July 1st……..and it was! Plus there really aren’t any teams in to big of a cap ceiling dilemma now either. We waited and lost out. Or did we just not compete for any of those players in the first place?

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 6:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

that may be the most on-point statement i’ve heard from you, bud.

by Shawn Kehoe on Jul 20, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

  And considering how on-point I am, it’s quite a compliment! :D

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 7:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

This deserves a...

“Ohsweetjesus”.

Gonna miss you Joel Ward...

Go Predmirals!

by Poiju on Jul 20, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

  I don’t know what you mean? :D

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 8:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The equivalent to a high five and a golf clap?

by Predaceous on Jul 20, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man...06-07...

Why oh why did we run into a turqoise and black wall known as the San Jose Sharks…that was the absolute best year and our most promising lineup ever, and if we had beat San Jose, there is no doubt that we could have made it to the Cup Finals. Ugh…

I love the “Predator Way” but the numbers speak very loud…as Dirk has shown, even cracking the top half in scoring would help tremendously in the Preds season and post-season. We need scoring now, and we have the money to do so, I believe, without sacrificing the Big 3. I truly hope Poile is looking at Callahan or Dubinsky coming off their arbitrations. Maybe we could land either or both, but now holding my breath.

GO PREDS!!!!!!!!!!

by HardCorePredFan316 on Jul 20, 2011 3:43 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t think the problem was that we ran into San Jose. I think the problem was that the lineup was dinged up. The team we iced in the playoffs was not the team that we got there with. That’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. Until this last season the Preds have always had significant injury problems at playoff time.

by Predaceous on Jul 20, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the fact that with the 2nd best record in the West...

…. still relegated to 4th seed because Detroit had the only better record in the West.

(Actually, Nashville had the most wins in the West as well, but didn’t benefit as much as Detroit did in OTL)

by djzielin on Jul 27, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

My question is

how do we determine whether “something is being done to address the offensive deficiencies of this team” between now and the beginning of the season? How can we as fans know what is and is not being done? Because I can assure you that this debate will continue on this website every day between now and the start of the season and I just don’t foresee any information coming out of Poile’s office to put our minds at rest.

And while this may sound like a sarcastic post, it’s really just a frustrated one. I despise arguing the absence of evidence. That’s fertile ground for rumors and speculation, which are completely unfair to all of us and which just get people p***ed off at each other. You get one group of “that’s right-ers” against another and no one has any fun.

So, please, tell me how, in the face of the silence that will extend until September or October, I can judge whether something is being done.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 20, 2011 3:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Probably

when that behind the scenes video comes out that just shows Poile and Weber playing ping-pong and not working on the contract.

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’d say that Poile’s statements that he’s not feeling the urgency to go out and acquire a Top 6 forward, and Trotz’s “hope it breaks through” talk about the PP at the Skate of the Union seem to indicate that boosting the offense isn’t a priority.

Outside of stuff like that, you’re right, until we see action taking place, we’re left to speculate (as the case always is with sports).

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!

by Dirk Hoag on Jul 20, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

That and Trotz’s proclamation that we don’t need more offense because we have a good defense. Ugh!

by Predaceous on Jul 20, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

My problem with this is that I’ve heard more than one version of both of these statements. In some there seems to be indifference to our offensive woes, and in others there seems to be at least some attempt to contextualize the situation as bad but not ALL THAT bad. The Trotz quote in particular seemed to get shortened from a “we already have good defense now the offense needs some work” statement to “we have good defense period” statement. And I know that there was a lot of talk on this website leading up to the SotU that Poile was after a “Top 6” forward—in those terms. So do we discard all the previous statements by Poile and Trotz., or what?

I’m sorry I sound grumpy but I’m really frustrated here.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 20, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

The more recent statements by Poile indicated that he didn’t feel that urgency to go out and get help up front. I’ll try and find a link for you. I’m just going with what they’ve been saying lately.

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!

by Dirk Hoag on Jul 20, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dirk, don’t worry about it. I don’t want to make extra work for you. I just want people to calm down a little and take all of this with a grain of salt. It all needs to be put into a big picture, with context and stuff. I would like it if the fans would stop jumping to conclusions about what’s going on in other people’s heads, but that’s human nature to an extent. So I’ll just have to put up with it.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

  Yes you will have to put up with it, cuz we’ll all keep bringing it! :p

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 5:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Well, now you’re just trying to annoy me.

We've been over this before. Stop trying to trade Pekka!!
Part Predator, part Lightning.

by CAustin on Jul 21, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

  You can’t stop people from truthin’! :)

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 7:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think

they are working on bringing in more offense. But if what we have is what we have, we can work with it. They aren’t going to make promises as to what offense they are going to bring in, because they may not be able to get it, just yet. Have no doubt, they would like more.

The other question may be that Weber’s arbitration could pay him way more than they were anticipating, so they don’t want to go over budget just yet.

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Managing expectations would be my guess.

No matter how much we wanted an amazing acquisition to our top offensive line this off season, my hunch is that GMDP didn’t see anything worth it’s economical cost.

I don’t think DP is going anywhere for a long time and his pace seems to indicate he doesn’t think he’s going anywhere for a long time either.

Gonna miss you Joel Ward...

Go Predmirals!

by Poiju on Jul 20, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

  And that, IMO, is a problem in any sports or business environment. Someone knowing their job isn’t a garuanteed thing for life tends to motivate them to do better.

  And cost is a relative thing. The ideal player at the ideal price may not come about, taking something good may have to do sometimes. Sometimes we can make perfect the enemy of the good.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 5:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Your points are all valid. It’s the perspective of GMDP that I’m trying to take into account. For him, a guy who’s not getting fired anytime soon, he considers it a better move to be a bubble team (maybe) again and wait until better opportunities arrive.

For most of us, myself included, I believe the hype the team has received from their recent playoff success is reason enough to sacrifice some economics in order to build on what is currently a solid foundation.

It’s very “A penny saved is a penny earned” VS “You have to spend money to make money”.

Gonna miss you Joel Ward...

Go Predmirals!

by Poiju on Jul 20, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

wait… you mean not only do we have to stop goals, we have to score them too?

60% of the time it works every time

by Creeping Death on Jul 20, 2011 4:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Unless

we play for the 0-0 tie and take it to the shootout every game :)

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

if this was soccer

Preds would make the finals every year on shoot outs.

by Sam Page on Jul 20, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Too bad

shootouts only come in elimination games in soccer. And a tie get you 1 pt, whereas a win gets you 3 pts in soccer.

Though yeah, a lot of teams do play for the tie. Though they are usually just staving off relegation.

by musamonster on Jul 20, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

A couple points here.

  First, the continual talk about our long term viability here and financial stabilty can’t be used as an endless excuse for mediocrity. We all know what the team can spend on payroll and we look at that and see where and how we can make improvements. It’s not a matter of not having the money to improve this roster, it’s whether there is an urgency to do so on the part of Poile and Trotz. To many statements made by them would indicate that there isn’t that urgency. Couple that with the fact that SK74 is really the only offensive addition we’ve made outside of our own organization in the past 3 years (Fisher=Lombardi=Arnott) and you get further evidence of that lack of urgency. (And no, Bergfors does not equal any kind of solution at this point).

  Actually, that was two points all in one paragraph! :D

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 5:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

  But with such content and elucidation? :D

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 6:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, but it might have been pithy.

Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?

by DonBorvio on Jul 20, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

  Why be pithy when you can bloviate? :D

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 6:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Pithy subject line.

Bloviate in follow up.

Gonna miss you Joel Ward...

Go Predmirals!

by Poiju on Jul 20, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Winning is a process and I agree with the defense first philosophy. Sure,it would br nice to spend to the cap, but ownership issues got in the way and we had the firesale. There will always be steps forward and steps back. I believe Poile and company understand what it takes to win because if it was just about spending money, teams like toronto would not only be in contention, but win every year. We can gripe about scoring, about coaching, the power play, etc, but I believe our franchise is on track, doing the right things to not only win, but build a winning tradition. If we want to assist, get new people into hockey, butts in the seats.

by Predator Don on Jul 20, 2011 7:10 PM EDT reply actions  

  Spending money seems to have helped the Bruins and Canucks in 10/11. Just sayin’……….

  But no one is saying it’s just about money, so I’m not even sure what the point is……….

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 7:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The point is, our organization is building a franchise which will be able to spend money like Vancouver and Boston…".able to bring in the player without so much attention to what dollar amount it is. The point is, we won,t speak of who to rid ourselves of, we will keep all three. The point is, our leadership group understands this organizations weaknesses, as a franchise, so it will become easier to address our perceived weakness on the ice. If it was just about spending money with no thought, we could get our president and congress, but we actually have people who understand the point……

by Predator Don on Jul 20, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

  I think you have a long wait to see this organization spend past the cap midpoint. In the interim, what does this franchise do? And do they really understand this teams weaknesses? As this threads article implies, it doesn’t seem that they are that urgent to correct our weakness.

  In lieu of us spending past the cap midpoint, which will be the case for the foreseeable future, we have to address our weaknesses with the money we do have to spend.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 11:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I’m not as concerned with the wait as I am the process. Look, I understand you believe we are, your words, mired in mediocrity as a team and your basis for this thought is we wont address our scoring issue. So you complain nothing is done, made a mistake during free agency, complain Poile and company are satisfied, etc, when nothing this franchise has done for our long term success indicates it is true, because if all your assertions were correct, we would be the balissie preds today.

by Predator Don on Jul 21, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

  The ownership side of the operation is quite seperate from the managerial part of it. GMDP’s role is only connected to ownership in as much as they allow him to run the hockey side of the operation. So the team still being here or in Hamilton really doesn’t address the issue at hand.

  The problem with the wait and see approach is that you fail to take advantage of the window of opportunities that may present themselves during that timeframe. Free agency, injuries, prospects not panning out can all throw a monkey wrench into the long term plans (e.g. Radulov). When a team has the opportunity to make a run at a championship, you have to seize that opportunity. We have that window of opportunity now but do not seem to be taking advantage of it.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 11:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

This just in!

The Admirals just signed Scott Ford to a contract.

Scott is 6’ 3" 220 who has played 204 games scored 7 g and 25 assists with the Admirals while accumulating 376 pm. Scott is a plus 18 with the Ads and has had 39 fighting majors defending the boys over the last 3 seasons.

Welcome back Fordo!!!

What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...

by BrianAdsFan on Jul 20, 2011 10:18 PM EDT reply actions  

You had me excited for a moment

Then I realized you didn’t say “Frodo”.

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!

by Dirk Hoag on Jul 20, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

C'mon Mr Hoag!...

Be excited! The youngins will have some sort of protection in Milwaukee!

Should ask Blake or Chuck or Mule how valuable someone like Scott Ford is to their well being.

What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...

by BrianAdsFan on Jul 20, 2011 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take your word for it

Although I’ll also say my hope is that Stortini spends a lot of time with the Ads. :)

Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!

by Dirk Hoag on Jul 20, 2011 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1!

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 20, 2011 11:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

In addition to Dirk's article.........

  I looked up the past 10 Stanley Cup finals (the furthest back the ESPN database went) and found that there have only been two teams who finished in the bottom half in the league in GPG average who have made the Cup finals, the 2003 Ducks (22nd) and the 2004 Flames (19th). The other 8 losing teams during those years were the Devils in 2001 (1st in GPG), the 2002 Hurricanes (13th), the 2006 Oilers (15th), the 2007 Senators (2nd), the 2008 Penguins (7th), the 2009 Wings (1st), the 2010 Flyers (8th) and the 2011 Canucks (1st).

 In fact, only five of the 20 Cup finalists in the past ten finals were not in the top 10 in GPG. Pretty solid evidence that you need good to great offense in order to get to the finals in this league.

Trotz says "we don't need more offense" and Poile "likes where we are right now". We're doomed!!!

by Grizzledbear on Jul 21, 2011 12:14 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

WORD!!

We know they are limited on offense, Poile and the boys have to find some talented but reasonable priced offensive guys.

Just because there's an absence of evidence doesn't mean there's an evidence of absence.

by jmkiii58 on Jul 21, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Article

At some point you have to evolve from “underdog doing it the right way” and make the necessary adjustments to consider yourself a championship team. It’s one thing to maximize talent and it’s another to acquire the talent necessary to win. The Predators seem to be stuck in the middle. Of course, it’s more admirable this way. If you take a chance and then lose then people will get upset and call you underachievers. But to most fans it’s worth the shot.

"You play to win the game."

by MrWayneKeller on Jul 21, 2011 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Great article let me drop a points here real quick....

First the Predator way needs a redux to include offense. Meaning offense minded first are valued equally as the defensive guys. We need two ways guys. Example… Bruins Brad Marchand

Second, the last four cup winners have an a top defensive line equal to Weber/Suter yet they were offensive juggernaults in comparison to the Predators. And in the playoffs someone a 3rd line guy steps up big in the playoffs to give an unexpected offensive help. This year it was Rich Peverly who was traded from Atlanta to Boston for their playoff push. 12 points (4goals/8assist)

Third, there are TWENTY SEVEN REASONS the Yankees are hated/envied and they fly at the top of the new stadium. Eventually the organization has to completely drop the"little train that could mentality" and go out and actively get mid tier offensive talent or start developing it through the draft. Commitment to winning the Cup has to be goal all the time. The Yankees are hated/envied for this being their goal every year is winning the World Series. Yet the organization and its fans welcome this challenge and seek to achieve it. As good as it was for the Predators to advance to the conference semifinals for the first time. There are no officially licensed t-shirts, hats, banners and other swag recognizing this accomplishment.

Just because there's an absence of evidence doesn't mean there's an evidence of absence.

by jmkiii58 on Jul 21, 2011 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

No

the Yankees are hated cause they buy every other big free agent on the market. “Oh so-and-so is a free agent, they must be going to the Yankees.” The Packers, Canadiens and Red Wings don’t receive nearly that kind of hate because they don’t buy everyone (though the mob of fans invading your arena or stadium is annoying.)

Winning the Cup is ultimately top priority. But how many teams win the title and then fall off the map? Continued success is also a must.

by musamonster on Jul 21, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see the......

Marlins giving back the TWO world series they have won. Nor have the Ducks taken down the 06-07 Stanley Cup banner. Both franchises won the it all and didn’t make the playoffs the next year. But they still have the BANNER that says CHAMPION. I’m not saying the Preds need to go over pay for top tier talent. But isn’t there some mid tier guys that we can get. Offense is needed to on this team. The Preds can only benefit from defense and favorable matchups for so long. I personally will take winning a championship any day over continued success. Why? Championships are forever. The team gets a spot on the Cup ring and banners hang from the rafters. Ask a Canuck fan how good continued success feels….

Just because there's an absence of evidence doesn't mean there's an evidence of absence.

by jmkiii58 on Jul 21, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those Marlins titles

Aren’t filing up the stadium or helping them win any more games. Tampa Bay Buccaneer’s title didn’t help help them avoid TV blackouts. The Rams won a title and in a few years fell off the face other earth. Ask the Leafs about their last title… that most of their fans weren’t even alive or old enough to see. Yes, championships are forever. They are the goal. I’m a 49ers fan and we have 5 of them. But sometimes it gets a little hard to wave them around when we can’t win a game. It was kind of funny to see the Ducks fans wave around their banner before the playoff series with us (forgetting they are missing many of the key players that helped them get that banner).

Championships are forever, but continued success is also a must. And nothing could be worse for this team than to have won a title, fallen of the face of the earth, and then take that title with them to another town. I bet there are some people that would love to see those 4 Islander title banners hanging from the rafters… in Quebec City.

(And yeah, we do need offense.)

by musamonster on Jul 21, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Braves had continued winning

in fact they made the playoffs 16 or 17 years in a row….. They STILL didn’t sell out during that streak. WHY? because they only had one championship during that streak. For record the Marlins attendance during those championship runs was just as pathetic as it is now. That might have something to do in being in Miami and less about the team. We just have to agree to disagree and thats OK…… One day the 49ers will win again and you can proudly claim those glory days from 1982-2003 the dynasty years. Ta TA for now!

Just because there's an absence of evidence doesn't mean there's an evidence of absence.

by jmkiii58 on Jul 21, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, they played in hotlanta…..

by Predator Don on Jul 21, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

We have the Defense and Goalie part of the equation.

Penalty killing is there too. But it is offense and power play help that we still need to get over this 2nd round hump! haha

We traded a great power play forward in Mathew Lombardi. I know he’s hurt now but if he gets to where he can play again and be sucessful this season not only did we mess that up but we REALLY messed up by trading him with arguably the second best (or potentially 2nd best) defenseman in our depth chart, Cody Franson. He has 1st d pairing power play written all over him. And we let him go for cap space. Now that Bouillion isn’t close and Shane O’Brien is signed we have really taken a step back from last year.

If we hope to be a Stanley Cup contender we are going to have to go after some offensive names and pray that the rookies can come up big in the clutch.

by preds4ever on Jul 22, 2011 2:20 PM EDT reply actions  

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