Shea Weber awarded $7.5 million on 1-year contract
Tim Wharnsby of the CBC just broke the following on Twitter:
Nashville's Shea Weber is awarded a $7.5 million salary arbitration.
While the number is a tad higher than I would have expected, it's not completely out of the ballpark, and sets the table for an interesting set of choices for David Poile.
Based on the lineup listed below, the current total payroll for 2011-12 is $49.9 million, leaving a few million available to fill out the roster, based on previous statements by David Poile that salary for the team would be going up this season.
Forwards: David Legwand, Martin Erat, Mike Fisher, Patric Hornqvist, Sergei Kostitsyn, Colin Wilson, Jordin Tootoo,Blake Geoffrion, Cal O`Reilly, Nick Spailng, Jerred Smithson, Matt Halischuk, Niclas Bergfors, and the J.P. Dumont buyout.
Defense: Shea Weber, Ryan Suter, Kevin Klein, Francis Bouillon, Brett Lebda, Jonathon Blum, and Tyler Sloan.
Goal: Pekka Rinne and Anders Lindback.
You can shuffle some of the secondary names around (Sloan for Teemu Laakso, etc.), but those moves have a marginal effect on the overall salary level.
What Should David Poile Do Now?
The big question, of course, is where the Preds go from here. Do they hope to mend fences and get a long-term extension agreed to? Unfortunately, I don't see that as realistic.
If they haven't already, I'd suggest that a frank discussion takes place as soon as possible, to determine whether Weber really wants to stay in Nashville. If not, Poile should place word around the league that he's available.
Send those GM's off on their August vacations to muse over the possibility of adding one of the league's top defensemen to their lineup, and spend September angling for the best deal before training camps open.
Given all the maneuvers that Poile went through to clear out salary room this summer, it would seem that the money is there and available to meet Shea's needs. But if he's not confident in making a long-term commitment here, then Poile's mandate is get the highest return possible when he leaves.
Note: Thanks to PredsOddManRush on Twitter for clarifying that per Section 50.5f (iv) of the CBA, since this is a one-year contract Shea and the Preds can't sign an extension until January 1.
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GRRRRRRR
Not a bad price for Weber, but this situation sickens me. I see an end to the Weber era. Just keep Sutes and Rinne now for God sake.
So, uh, ahem, what do you want for Weber? Anything not named Sedin, Kesler, Burrows, Hamhuis, Bieksa. or Malhotra is available.
Tootoo is a thug and everybody knows it… I’m not here to create an argument, Perry is better than every single forward on the Preds.
And Weber is better than any player on the Ducks. Be happy you have a good coach and GM. Weber will stay unless Poile pisses him off even more
I rather have Bobby Ryan, just a better guy. He didn’t really intend to skate-stomp Blum. And even so, Weber hurts more of his teammates with that slapshot anyway.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Perry’s a great player. Bit of a douche. Re: Tootoo, that’s more reputation than the way he plays now. He’ll be a nice comeback story this season. Reputation hurts him, though. That diving penalty in Game 6 vs. VAN, case in point.
by el pucko on Aug 3, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
anybody that still thinks Tootoo still plays like a thug did not watch him after he returned from rehab. He filled a role on this team and did what he was asked to do. That role has now changed and he is being asked to contribute in different ways.
haha yeah he’s our douche…. I personally am jealous of how Nashville drafts at times, such genius behind all the selections. But seriously, watch Tootoo trying to cross check Lydman in the head. But to be fair, Perry is a very very big douche lol
Yeah I’m sure he took a run at Lydman at some point in that series. But his game is really different, big change since the team figured out it can’t kill penalties very well. Actually, I’d like to see him recover some of the old edge. We’re really short on folks who keep opponents accountable. Ducks could basically camp in front of Pekka all they wanted. Weber used to have a bit more nasty in his game, but he needs to be on the ice.
haha it’s okay, the Ducks are too good on the PP…. But damn, how is that Colin Wilson guy doing? Wasn’t he a stud at BU?
He was. This will be a big year for him, contract year I think. Playing time dimished in the second half, and I don’t think you saw him at all in the first round.
Sweet Christ...
…it was a joke.
Tootoo is hardly a thug anymore, but that’s beside the point. I personally like our coach and GM, even though I don’t always agree with them. Luckily no one pays me to make those decisions.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Did you just link me to a video where no contact occurred?
What’s your point? Even had he finished what would definitely been a moronic move, it’s becoming increasingly rare.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
I didn't say he was a saint...
…I said he was better. Point is, you mis took the joke and then started in on Tootoo. I’ll say all day I don’t want Perry until he ends up on our team, at which point I will pout for an additional day and then be happy as hell around goal 40.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
This is still a Preds board right???
Perry is a Sissy
Perry is a Sissy
Perry is a Sissy.
See I can be as childish as you are.
Stand close to him...
…he has a tendency to “give” gear to fans.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
That's all you got that's worth anything to us Beaner.
I’ll take Kesler for him.
One for one.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
ha
i know our assets aren’t what you need
but we can trade our assets for assets that you do want
lots of teams would kill for schneider
and hodgson has a lot of upside
obviously not players you want, but a three-way is always fun…
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL!
A 40 goal scoring forward who just won the Selke?
Trotz couldn’t ask for anything more. He’d be like a pig in slop.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Schneider.
We got Pekka Rinne, dude. What would we do with Schneider? Vancouver can’t afford him anyway. Cap problems, dog.
You don't want him
that’s why he said 3 team deal. Cause other teams would want him. He was saying we would trade our prospects to someone who would give you players you want and we would get Weber. That’s how desperate he is to get Shea.
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"Are you out of your fucking mind? You think I'm just going to rape you on the off chance that hopefully you're into that shit?" - Louis CK
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, and Chief Hunk.
by Section 312 on Aug 3, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Columbus fan here...
Sorry for the double-comment, but as a fan of a fellow small market team, I’m wondering how the $7.5 million number bodes long-term for you guys. Is this basically the beginning of the end?
Despite my dislike of the Preds on the ice, I have always admired how they run their organization and develop their talent. It would suck to basically do everything right in terms of drafting and developing a guy, only to see a number like this basically run him out of town.
Writer for The Cannon - A Columbus Blue Jackets blog
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"I will say anything to be funny, often in the most horrible situations, which is one reason [a] good [woman] so far [has] been very sorry on occasion to have married me." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They cleared enough room to pay it—we’re still barely at the cap floor. But it makes signing Suter and Pekka next season A LOT more difficult.
by Melissa Vanderpool Wallace on Aug 3, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
We have at least two more years of Weber in Nashville. Two more years of mending any bruised egos, two more years of talking money, two more years of convincing him to stay. Why throw all that away to trade him when we know we’d never get fair price for him? Seems really silly to start that kind of talk already.
by lethargic on Aug 3, 2011 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Beeswax!
We got two more years of Weber before he leaves for nothing.
Does Taylor Swift have a boyfriend? Maybe she could convince him to stay? LOL!
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody’s worth that much on a one year deal. I say seperate him from Suter and make him play his butt off. If he wants to be the highest paid D-man in league, he needs to earn it and to my mind he hasn’t earned it yet.
by Melissa Vanderpool Wallace on Aug 3, 2011 3:08 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
got to agree with you there. It would be very interesting to see how good both are when playing without the other. Just maybe the reason for them being so good IS the other.
"I am you, you are me, and we are all together" Beatles
>It would be very interesting to see how good both are when playing without the other.
We saw that for a while last season, it wasn’t pretty.
Great point...
Set up our rookies with a:
Weber/Blum
Suter/Ellis
Then we’ll see just how good Weber can be.
I lika your thinking Melissa.
by HardCorePredFan316 on Aug 3, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve mentioned this before… I hope they try it out in preseason. They could always reunite them for critical, late game moments or PP.
by VApreds on Aug 3, 2011 3:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Worth it
Best d-man in the league and will be for some time in the future too. Now just say hey how bout we take that 7.5 mil and just add a few more years onto it?
Too much cheese
Let the what can we get for Weber talk begin. I’ll start by saying at least Zach Parise
Parise?
We will have them same problem with him next year. He just got 5 mil and will make more next year. He got 5 mil and only played 13 games last year. Imagine how much he would have gotten had he played a whole season.
Yeah, but he can’t possibly get more than Stamkos in the all but guaranteed ensuing arbitration.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
ok, is it at least a good sign he wanted it to be for one year? I saw some reports that said he was kind of mad and or hurt the Preds elected to go to arbitration. I would think that means he at least really does have some desire to stay here. If he really wanted out he could have elected it to be a two year deal and been a UFA at the end of it. At least this way, next year he gives the team a shot at keeping him even though he will get offer sheets from other teams if a deal isn’t worked out before
60% of the time it works every time
I wonder if Poile is regretting that arbitration decision.
If he had let Weber be a RFA and take offers, he probably would’ve gotten a long term offer that Poile could’ve matched and all this would’ve been over with weeks ago.
bingo
and that will happen next year anyway
like i said below, i can’t equate this to anything but bad management
the only other possibility is that Weber genuinely wants out of Nashville, which is the opposite of everything said publicly… but in that case, he should be traded, not arbitrated with.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
thats what I was wondering too. Damn, I wish we could know what all went on!
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
How the mighty have fallen.
Now you’re drinking my Kool-Aid Dirk.
If we can get him for $7M a year long term, then sign that contract tomorrow. If not, ship his ass to Edmonton for Taylor Hall.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:15 PM EDT reply actions
Taylor Hall for President
Has a nice ring to it, I must say.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
unfortunately
constitutionally ineligible
as is Weber for that matter
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s changing it to yada yada for Prime Minister
by Marcus Newman on Aug 3, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Constitutionally being the key word here....
….can you say ammendment?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Taylor Hall for supreme overlord?
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Taylor Hall for Teen Magazines Best Lips Award?
I feel dirty just joking about that…
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
by Poiju on Aug 3, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahahahahaha!!!
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade him
Build around Suter, RInne, and whoever we get for Weber
UNLESS YOU KNOW HIM PERSONALLY
you are guessing. im guessing he would like being the biggest dog in the pen.
No, you are making a wild guess. Nothing wrong with that though.
by Marcus Newman on Aug 3, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
How about trading Poile?
That’s a possibility right?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know if THAT’s a possibility….. however, I do know a guy
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
are you kidding me? this GM has built your franchise with absolutely no money. he drafts well and keeps your damn team afloat when all your fans don’t come to the games except during the playoffs. You have a great GM, be proud and pleased.
Ducks fan talking crap about attendance?
POT-KETTLE!!!!
our attendance has been bad because the OC has had a terrible economy. I’m pretty sure people in Nashville aren’t that poor
We have the Titans...
BWAHAHAHAHA!
I’m not saying anything negative on the Ducks, but our attendance didn’t suck this year.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
So the team who wins baseball's weakest division
and then loses in the best-of-five divisional….
Is blocking attendance for a sport whose season doesn’t overlap?!
Ducks fans are absolutely adorable.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
We’re not all bad…Albert’s just moronic.
"Thank you very much fans and let’s go for the next game together!"
— Lubomir Visnovsky
I rec’d that shit.
The Angels play baseball...
opposite season from hockey.
Nice try.
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
But
If people spent their $$$ on the Angels, they may not have $$$ left over for the Ducks. Attention, yes, $$$, no.
A bad economy in Anaheim...
is when the family can’t buy a second Mercedes…
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
Our attendance isn't that bad.
He also signed Dumont, Legwand and Erat to long term contracts accompanied by gross overpayment for their (lack of) production.
He’s no saint.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it would be great to take some time
and look at other teams signings of players that never panned out. I think we could start with the Panthers this year.
I believe the Panthers will make a run at the playoffs.
the bottom of the East is pretty bad.
i've got to say
i’m shocked that the arbitrator would make him the highest paid d-man in the league
that amazes me
this is a total nashville management fail, a) to let him make it to arbitration and then b) to present such a crappy case to the arbitrator that he walks away with a cap hit $600,000 higher than any other defenceman in the league! wowzers. I was expecting Chara money, like around $6.9 to come from arbitration.
25 year old Norris trophy finalist?
What’s not to love?
And did you see that Poile apparently came in at $4.75M? The arbitrator probably even got pissed at Poile for being that stupid and so he gave Weber an outlandish contract.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think our Vancouver friend was right above. It’s an amazing award. Based on which comps, I wonder. Well, if the arbiter has a thing against small-market teams in the U.S., he delivered a pretty big blow here.
haha
i was a trapped in boston, when i started this account…
until i moved to new york
it’s all very awkward i know
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 3, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
AGREED
many said thats how the game is played. stupidity is never a good plan and the amount was absurd
wow..
you obviously know jack about how arbitration works. you can’t compare him to UFA salaries. What happened was the arbitrator looked at all the RFA dmen and the contracts they’ve signed (Phaneuf 6.5m) and said, “yep. he’s better than all of them” and bam, 7.5m later we’ve got shea for 1 year.
He never said
Use Chara as a comparable. Just he expected “chara-like money”. Which is different.
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
The arbitor only awarded 6 mil to Shea...
…and 1.5 to his playoff beard.
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
So...
Next summer we have the big 3 all up for new contracts, 2 of which are unrestricted.
Read that sentence 1 more time and give me a situation in which Poile re-signs all 3.
Eff you, Poile.
"The Final Countdown" is now playing in your head. You're welcome.
In addition to albatrossian contracts to Legwand and Erat who do nothing for almost $10M a year.
What makes Poile a good GM again?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Really
I could be wrong, but didn’t Poile sign those contracts to get to the floor after the Fire Sale???
Yeah, but he didn't have to make the both for 7 year.
7 freakin’ years!!!
That’s almost as bad as breaking a mirror!
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
He had to get them signed and both you and I have no idea what that was going to take. He also had no idea knowing where this team would be physically and financially in 7 years
out 10 million dollars, thats where we are!
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
or 20/10 in my case? I don’t wanna be downgraded to 20/20 ;)
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Legwand was signed in December before the fire sale. If Poile had waited until the season’s end he could have signed Legwand for a lot less, considering his 11 goals scored that season. Poile rewarded Legwand for one good season. I’m not sure why he did what he did with Erat. That was signed in June so there was no rush there either. He still had an entire offseason to get to the cap floor.
you are assuming
That Poile did not know that the fire sale was coming. I would think that would be an incorrect assumption. I feel certain that he knew all to well what the financial situation was and took steps to wrap up the “original” predator. :0
I think both got a little extra to stick out an uncertain situation…
by Marcus Newman on Aug 3, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
If Poile knew in December that the sale was coming then it would stand to reason that he would NOT overpay, given that the directive was to shed salary.
no it was after the fire sale
Fire sale was the summer after the 06-07 season. Legwand signed his 6 year contract extension in December of 2007
Keys to the game: GA<GF
I thought Erat's contract was up after this season....
…. or does he have 2 years left?
Sale was announced in May 2007, followed by the firesale.
Freeman’s group took over team on November 29th, 2007.
Legwand was signed December 7th 2007 and the 11 goal season was 2 years later in 09-10.
And this whole overpayment thing to reach the floor is a complete load. That conspiracy theory didn’t come out until years after the fact. You don’t need to reach the floor in December.
Sorry for bringing facts into the Legwand sucks fantasies.
He still sucks....
…. but for other reasons. ;)
You need to prepare to reach the floor at any point in the season. Not sure what December has to do with it.
December is in the middle of the season. They were already at the floor. You really couldn’t figure that out?
When they signed that deal the ownership blatantly explained over and over again that this was their first signing and they were looking to make a big splash to prove to the fans that they would pay whatever it took to keep the team intact.
You also have to remember that the previous off season saw the owners go on their first moronic spending spree since the lockout. We saw this first hand when Kimmo, Hartnell and Kariya all got huge raises and stupidly overpaid. Legwand was coming off his career year and was able to use that and the “comparables” that came out of that off season to negotiate a great deal that he probably would not have gotten 6 months earlier or 6 months later. It was great timing. It had absolutely nothing to do with the floor.
The floor changes each season
This is a preds team that loves a player like Leggy. Don’t ask me why, but they are willing to give him the money to both keep him and to be able to reach the floor
the extension...
… didn’t count against that year’s cap anyways.
Please correct me if I'm wrong
but his qualifying offer for 2012 is equal the previous years’ salary no?
So, his QO will be $7.5M again next summer unless a LT deal can be worked out? That’s got to be the highest QO in history, no?
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
7.5 million......reminds me of a scene from Reservoir Dogs
I mean he is good, but he didn’t take me in the back and give me a handjob good….he is great, but arbitration should have yielded a more reasonable number especially for the music city
by Challenger Jones on Aug 3, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
LOL @ Eklund
15 mins after this news broke, he posts saying he hears rumors of a two year offer.
He has already changed it however lol
getting the clap from doing things on the floor….
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Just trade him and be done with it.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Why?
He is still and RFA and it doesn’t look like it was as bad as we thought. This is the same number people were talking about at the end of the season. No surprise there. Not to mention after the season is over if someone wants to submit an offer to him they will have to give up 3 1st round picks at least if not more. Most all of the teams are not going to want to give up what it will take to get him anyways.
Detroit?
SJ? Vancouver? Pit? Chicago?
And then we get 3 first rounders in the mid-20s. That’s getting nothing in return for Weber.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck, send him to Toronto, Edmonton, or Ottawa if we’re getting picks.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
That's if we trade him
I’m talking about next year if he’s tendered an offer by any one of those teams (especially Detroit). I’d prefer to send him to Edmonton for Hall.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Ouch to be included on that list.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
Sorry man, the history speaks for itself. Hopefully it turns around (in a couple years if Weber goes there and we get your 1st rounders ;).
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
If you’re really ranking T.O. next to EDM and OTT right now then I think you’re mistaken… but ya we’ve got a ways to go.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
There's nothing crazy about overanalyzing everything....
/yesiknowthat’snotwhatyou’rereferringto
One day you too shall know the freedom that comes from #NotLebda. Hopefully as soon as training camp.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Lebda-free since July 3.
SJ won't want him..
They have both Boyle and Burns locked up long term now, and no way they’d spend that much of their cap space on three D-men.
Maybe if they hadn’t signed Burns to an extenstion, but there’s no way now.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are just examples.
Doubt Chicago would want him with Keith and Seabrook either.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
True
but I just don’t think any team with low picks is going to put out offer sheets unless they have departing RFA/UFAs themselves. Haven’t looked to know who that is, though.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit
This will probably be Lidstrom’s last hurrah.
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Every once in a while, you’ll see Weber’s name come up on the wishful thinking list in D.C. They’ve got no money to spend right now. But they have assets. And they have no one like Weber, not even close. Some good kids in Carlson and Alzner but different set of skills.
Weber for Semin? Go for it. Carlson & Alzner aren’t going anywhere for a number of years.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Aug 3, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha ha his name comes up a lot around here. But no, I can’t see Semin in our system. (And I can’t believe I’m using “our.” I’m a native Caps fans. But somewhere in the past few years, this team here got under my skin in a good way, and now I’ve got two teams rolling. Well, one team. The other is reeling right now.)
Hey CB is a great ambassador for the team & this site, so a lot of the Japers’ folks lurk here. I can’t see Semin being a legit #1 scoring threat by himself anywhere. I think his success is driven by being the 2nd threat on the Caps, and I think he needs a similar situation in the future (not necessarily in DC but another legit scorer) to continue putting up the numbers he does.
J.P.: You might be the king of all geeks here…
by Alz Well That Ends Well on Aug 3, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
That's it right....
….now we gotta just trade him. That arbitration value of $7.5M is incredibly high.
Poile messed up bad.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at what “nhlcheapshot” said, his RFA QO (minimum offer for him) will have to be $7.5 next year! No way we are doing that and possibly paying MORE than that. Ship him and his weasel agent to the highest bidder!
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Yep
Man, I’d really like to know whose fault this REALLY is.
Did Weber not really wanna stay here so his demands were too high?
Or did Poile force Weber out the door by undershooting him with the contract offer?
Or maybe Poile has never had any intention of signing Weber in the first place and wants to go with Suter and Rinne?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I blame the weasel agent, then Weber. Poile I initially blamed, but he gave Weber a good offer (reportedly), 3-7 years for $7 mil per.
And I’m sorry, this goes beyond just “gots to get paid!” and “I want a Cup!”. This is tampering with a relationship, and possibly damaging a franchise. Some things are bigger than what the individual wants. So if Weber and his little weasel want just money or to pull a Hossa and float around for a Cup, trade him now and let him because he ain’t worth the trouble!
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
by DonBorvio on Aug 3, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is a lot of Blame to go around
The “this is all Poile’s fault” camp sounds just as crazy as the “this is all Weber’s fault” camp. It is just like any relationship. Both parties share some of the blame when things turn south.
Yeah, I am with you there. Just seems like a rookie Agent trying to make his mark, and Poile being a vet in the business and not taking his crap. Shame Weber has been sucked into this agent’s gameplan. I am willing to bet that Titan Sports have probably offered him stake into the company for many years, past his playing days, etc. At this point I am all for the Preds trying to find some kind of trade for some offense.
Personally, I’d put the agent behind the player here. The player hires the agent, after all, and has the final say on matters.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
true
I was merely trying to point out is is foolish and childish to put all the blame on one person’s shoulders in this mess. Reading the boards the last couple of days it seems like people are family members on one side of a divorce or the other.
But the agent is a little whisperer in the ear...reminds me of this relationship:

Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
by DonBorvio on Aug 3, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Are you saying....
… that Weber is going to be killed later by the Witch King (aka Pavel Datsyuk)?
Then Ryan Ellis will stab the Witch King in the leg and set up the kill by Carrie Underwood.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Wait....
…. which one is David Poile? Ryan Suter?! Taylor Swift?!
David Poile = hopefully Gandalf.
Suter = Eomer
Swift = Eowyn?
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
doh. Not many women of note around.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
this is the geekiest convo I have had in years....
…. pass the Clearasil!

Exactly. Too easy to hide behind counsel, whether it’s an agent or a lawyer. He hired the guy. As far as I can tell, Weber switched agents sometime in the first half of June and the team responded by filing for arbitration. Maybe those two are connected in a way. I’m sure the Preds had intel on Titan or found out in a hurry.
Hmmm, maybe you have something there. But maybe it’s no one’s fault. Maybe Poile has method in his perceived madness. My own opinion is that Weber valued a big paycheck over playing for the Preds. He has to know that the organization is not going to pay him any more than what he was awarded by the silly arbitrator. I predict he will be gone after next year if not before. We need a good scorer and paying Weber this amount of money while trying to keep Suter and Rinne is just not going to work out.
"I am you, you are me, and we are all together" Beatles
agreed
Unlike many on here I have always thought that Suter was the better all around defender. I think the focus should immediately switch to getting the other two locked up. if not then we may need to get the young guys some playing time this year. Which maybe, just maybe, is the reason that Polie was so adamant about the young dmen being called up.
cannot disagree with you there....
…. start negotiating with Rinne and Suter….. starting NOW!
can the post-arby interviews begin, please??
I think this number is a bit high, but I’m more concerned with long term fallout potential and the Peks/Sutes situation.
I really can’t wait to hear some quotes from Weber and Poile themselves so we can get a better/legit vibe on everything…
$hea?
Thinking he is going Ke$ha on us.I say make a run at it this year, pick up Parise at the deadline. Take the offer sheets next year.
by Ian Kiracofe on Aug 3, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
IF we were to trade him
that would send the message to Suter and Peks that we wont pay you what you deserve and will make signing them much harder.
Well, I knew this number was going to be closer to the number he wanted than Poile’s.
Now get some long term things done with Pekka and Suter and give Shea a resaon to stay here.
There is some hope in the fact that this is only a one year acceptance and not two. Still have a chance to iron out a long term deal after New Years with hopefully the Preds still in the hunt for the playoffs.
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
is the Beard still an RFA or is its salary included in the 7.5?
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well…I’m not sure what to think, but if the offer was on the table at 7 mil, with the choice of 3-7 years and we couldn’t get Webers agent to accept it…..I’m not too happy.
I want to keep Weber but he can choke on the extra half mil.
There had to be more than a money issue. We may never know…until we trade him away.
When Canadian broadcast cabability has full enterprise failure.
by Marcus Newman on Aug 3, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
it makes perfect sense! go and get nothing for him…. Canadian economics right there ;)
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Shea Weber Arbitration Award Default 2012?
60% of the time it works every time
by Creeping Death on Aug 3, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
TSN
For a country that’s suppose to know alot about hockey, they sure make a lot of stupid comments.
If Weber's not traded by this yeaar's Trade Deadline
I’m wondering – if the next year offer sheet has to be at 100% of the prior year’s salary – looks like because Shea is still an RFA – if the Pred’s don’t match another team’s offer sheet, we get picks right? WIth a $7.5 mill pricetag for future negotiations, I’m betting GMDP will shop him by Feb.
CAN ANYONE SAY DIFINITIVELY
if there are any restrictions on being able to trade him such as jan 1 like the unlikely new contract extension could be signed?
There are no restrictions on trading him
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
My favorite player as a child was Mr Ray Bourque. He played for over twenty years with the same club the Bruins and never won a Cup with them. He was a young player wearing number which was retired during a season while he wore it for Esposito and during the cermony he removed his jersey to reveal his new number 77. He quietly asked when he only had one or two seasons left in his body to be traded to a team that might have a better chance to win the Stanley Cup. The Avalanche were able to accommodate him, won the cup and he retired. Not only did he have a party in Denver but he had one in Boston as well. I have a t shirt that has his number split Bruins/Avalanche style on the back and on the front in tribute. This is the kind of player that current young kids need to emulate not go out for the almighty buck.
POILE'S PRESS CONFERENCE
Is it possible to watch it online????
I think it's on the radio??
But I’d like to find a way to listen in as well
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Nevermind..
Per Dirk on Twitter it’s just a conference call with the media. I guess the rest of us are going to have to wait.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I’m watching the 303 twitter feed: http://twitter.com/#!/cellblock303
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
104.5
OF COURSE THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL
and 560 is Titans training camp.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Training camp?
They put training camp on the radio? What could there possibly be to broadcast?
Though I’m sure I could find the Bengals training camp up here if I were to fiddle with the dial some.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
“Hasselbeck’s looking good out there throwing the ball. It’s hot out here…” other worthless diatribe like that.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Do people actually care/listen?
Though the Bengals training camp is always a big deal here for whatever reason, and Georgetown was worried the lockout would prevent it from happening. So who knows.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hiya guys!
I just wanted to say that the right-most building in the skyline of the new OTF logo resembles Batman.

That is all.
maybe we should thing about flipping the two now…
"Wait, where am I? Whose chestnuts are in the fire?" - Terry Crisp...probably.
by TerryCrispisms on Aug 3, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Hence why it is nicknamed the "Bat Building"
AT&T Building.
My Trade
Weber-Lebda-Smithson for Kesler-Bieska. The money is just about even. The Canucks can show how much they really want Shea
I see a small sticking point in that....
…. the five letter last name dude.
Ok.
This hurts.
•$1,034,249 or below: No compensation
•$1,034,250 – $1,567,043: A 3rd round draft pick.
•$1,567,044 – $3,134,088: A 2nd round draft pick.
•$3,134,089 – $4,701,131: A 1st and 3rd round draft pick.
•$4,701,132 – $6,268,175: A 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round draft pick.
•$6,268,176 – $7,835,219: Two 1st’s, a 2nd and a 3rd round draft pick.
•Over $7,835,219: Four 1st round draft picks.
So if the arbitrator put the value up just $350,000+ whatever adjust there is next year… yeah… $8 million. Wow.
I think you could expect the preds to match any offer at 7.5 million,
so if the offer sheet is above 8 then it is four first rounders. Correct???
Not really a big deal. Nashville could just promise to match anything up to $8M, to get it over the four 1sts mark. Boston made the same comment to ensure that the Kessel deal over the 1st and a 3rd marker.
This is where a witty signature might go.
This is where a witty signature might go on drugs.
Sadly, when I see the picture of Weber up above as it’s cropped, I mentally picture this, whether right or wrong.

We knew he’d be getting his compensation, but the way this has all shaken out, it just leaves me with a sense of bad feelings toward both sides.
Look at Puck Daddy’s article. You’re not the only one.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
From that article:
According to sources close to the negotiations, Weber was angered when the Predators elected to take him to arbitration. Weber believed that he was a candidate for an offer sheet, one that would ensure a big payday for the next several years. The team-elected arbitration prevented other teams from attempting to sign Weber to an offer sheet.
Doesn’t make Shea look good.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Here it is!
A friend said Poile and Weber are doing a joint call to the press. Weber said he wants to stay. We need to quit listening to rumors. All other hockey fans want to destroy us. We can’t let them. We need to stand behind our captain.
link?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
my friend's brother's aunt's siister's former roommate said...
…. that Shea Weber wants to play some hockey.
Thoughts?
Funny joke, not really, but
This is really happening. There’s your link.
http://twitter.com/#!/forechecker
Here's another, jokester.
http://twitter.com/#!/joshuacooper
Also look at the cellblock for the play-by-play.
http://twitter.com/#!/cellblock303
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Read from bottom to top.
Poile (on the Franson trade): In part, what we’ve done is make dollars available to sign Shea (& the others). Also it was a hockey move too.
2 minutes agoPoile: It’s a process that you do everything to avoid. Hopefully our relationship is strong enough (to know) that that’s the business part.
3 minutes agoWeber: It’s a business. Obviously they’re trying to get the best deal that they can. Both sides present their case & it’s nothing personal.
4 minutes agoWeber: I just don’t see any reason why I wouldn’t want to be here (in Nashville). #Preds #NHL
5 minutes agoPoile: Believe me, I’ve talked to Shea about this. Hockey-wise, we’re right there. Business-wise, we’re not quite there. #Preds #NHL
7 minutes agoWeber (on Suter and Rinne): Hopefully we’ll get on the same page and we can play together for a long time. #Preds #NHL
9 minutes agoWeber: That’s what kinda makes this one year deal interesting. I’m sure we’re gonna be talking with each other. (on Rinne, Suter)
9 minutes agoWeber: It is kinda what it is. It’s a negotiation process. This is a temporary solution. I love my teammates and the fans and the city.
10 minutes agoPoile: I think my relationship is good with Shea. There are reasons why we didnt get a deal done. It’s as simple as term, salary & structure
11 minutes agoPoile: If we do not do a new contract with Shea next year, we are not allowed to do another team-elected arbitration. #Preds #NHL
12 minutes agoPoile: It wasn’t the perfect scenario as far as the timing but… the things we did (so far) in the off-season were calculated. #Preds
14 minutes agoPoile: All of our focus has been on Shea to this point. It’s not just about the salary and term. It’s about where the team is going.
15 minutes agoPoile: The owners are on board for that and we’ll be taking advantage of the opportunities (to get a top 6 fwd) when they present themselves
16 minutes agoWeber: We’re right there. Everyone knows how close we were last year against Vancouver. They’ll do what they can to fill in the pieces.
17 minutes agoWeber: That was just part of the business. Hopefully that can allow us some time to get something longer term done. #Preds
18 minutes agoWeber: We had a great young team last year and I think we’e going to be there again. #Preds #NHL
19 minutes agoWeber: Thank you to all the fans for hanging in there through all this.
19 minutes agoWeber: It’s nice to get this arbitration process out of the way for now. Hopefully this can lead to further negotiations &get something done
20 minutes agoPoile: We will deal with Suter and Pekka Rinne when the players are back in town. #Preds #NHL
20 minutes agoPoile: For every year we have Shea here, the longer our chance to win the Stanley Cup. #Preds #NHL
21 minutes agoPoile: He conveyed to me on Monday that he (feels it’s unfortunate) we didn’t get this done over long term.
Poile: He is all about competing and competing for the Stanley Cup. His goal, as is the #Preds’, is to win a Stanley Cup.
23 minutes agoPoile: Today’s award is certainly reflective of his worth in the National Hockey League.
24 minutes agoPoile: I’ve talked to Shea to offer my congratulations.
24 minutes ago
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
I feel better about everything after this
Hope it’s not just me
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel better, but am in “wait-and-see” mode. I’m still highly skeptical. This could just all be poker-face.
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
It is to a degree, i'm sure
I am just glad Weber got on the call with him. I think that shows class.
If Weber really wanted out
He’d have picked for the arbitor to go with a 2-year contract so he could be an UFA and be gone.
Considering that was his choice, and he picked the 1-year (stays an RFA) shows he does want to stay.
“Wait-and-see”, yes, but this does allow the talks to continue and get hammered out over the next few months (if needed) while allowing him to sign as early as Jan 1 2012, rather than Jan 1 2013.
by Old Kentucky Shark on Aug 3, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
B.S. all the way
The truth is neither libelous nor slanderous.
Reason and logic instead of hope and faith.
Pro athletes--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
General managers--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
by shoot the puck on Aug 3, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
So….a few well chosen words for a soundbite and suddenly he’s gonna stay here long term? Believe it when he signs his next contract, not this one.
The truth is neither libelous nor slanderous.
Reason and logic instead of hope and faith.
Pro athletes--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
General managers--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
by shoot the puck on Aug 3, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It maybe damage control....
But was needed. And same here, when he signs a long term contract I will feel better.
I still say that we lose one of the big three.
If we do sign then it will be them with a bunch of players making 1.5 million or less.
I just hope....
That its not a distraction during the season.
You called it.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been saying it for weeks.
The truth is neither libelous nor slanderous.
Reason and logic instead of hope and faith.
Pro athletes--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
General managers--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
by shoot the puck on Aug 3, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Huge Loss in Arbitration for Preds
Wow! $7.5 M is crazy good number for Weber (Congratulations to Titan on what must have been a great presentation). The RFA comps don’t justify that much, so Titan must have argued "There are no comps because Shea Weber is the best young defenseman in the NHL, we can demonstrate that, he needs to be paid higher than the comps because he’s better than the comps, etc…" I wonder if the Preds even spent much time prepping for the arbitration hearing, guessing they would settle in the end.
Unfortunately, $7.5 M becomes the new baseline for Weber. Even as part of a long-term deal, he’ll never accept a prime-age year less than $7.5 M and on the open market would start the bidding there and demand more. This loss in arbitration may have just priced Weber out of the Preds budget. I think the Preds unfortunately need to start preparing for life after Weber and considering trade options because it is clear that Titan will actively solicit offer sheets next offseason and may get one the Preds can’t afford to match. At which point they may be looking at 4-5 lower first round picks from the Detroit Red Wings….
I disagree with a lot of what you said
on a long term deal I think the Preds could still get Weber locked up for less than 7.5 annually. I also don’t think the Wings would be willing to give up that many first round picks to sign Weber.
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
"Are you out of your fucking mind? You think I'm just going to rape you on the off chance that hopefully you're into that shit?" - Louis CK
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, and Chief Hunk.
by Section 312 on Aug 3, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I could see you guys locking up Weber for $7mil/yr easily. Less if you go for a longer/"lifetime" contract. 10yrs @ $6mil/yr wouldn't surprise me at all.
Supposedly Poile offered $7M annually for up to 7 years, but that didn’t get it done.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
Great Presentation?
I could have got Shea 7.5 in an arbitration.
(and I would have used a spellcheck and did research too. Like tapping up Dirk hear for some stats and shown a few Youtube videos of him demolishing Lilja, putting a shot through a net during the Olympics, etc…)
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
This feels like out 'Angels in the Outfield' moment.
Weber will return when we win the cup.
/Of course we all saw how that turned out for Joseph Gordon-Levitt
"Wait, where am I? Whose chestnuts are in the fire?" - Terry Crisp...probably.
Thank you, good sir, for the brightest part of my day.
"Wait, where am I? Whose chestnuts are in the fire?" - Terry Crisp...probably.
by TerryCrispisms on Aug 3, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome.
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, I feel better.....
OK…..Poile and Weber have a kum ba ya moment with the press. We all are supposed to feel better….I’m not gonna feel good until Weber signs long term and it appears 7.5 isn’t gonna get the job done. So why should I feel better…..
Unless we can hammer out a deal in the next few weeks, I don’t know how you can allow Weber to go thru the season with a big question mark on his chest with Rinne and Suter watching. As captain. As anything.
And btw, it makes me feel worse for mr Weber to speak to Suter and Rinne…….Part of his contract negotiations needs to be keep your damn hands off our players.
He can't sign an extension until Jan. 1st
I can hear it now—“I don’t want to worry about that until after the season.”
The truth is neither libelous nor slanderous.
Reason and logic instead of hope and faith.
Pro athletes--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
General managers--it's not what they say, it's what they do.
by shoot the puck on Aug 3, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
So
should we literally replace the “C” with a “?”
That’d be hilarious. I wonder if anyone will do that if the year goes by and nothing happens.
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
For $7.5 Million...
I would much much much rather have a player like Steven Stamkos than Shea Weber if you’re paying a player $7.5 Million. Another thing to think about is how this will affect new jersey sales. Coming out with two new jerseys is a great way to generate a lot of revenue but I think this really hurts those jersey sales. I personally don’t want to buy a new Weber jersey and then see him leave/trade after this year. Most of our long time beloved players are gone (Sully/Dumont) and with Pekka and Suter becoming UFA after this season im not about to spend $170+ on a new jersey with a player im not sure will even be here next season.
Another thing I wonder about is how his teammates are taking this, especially Suter. His partner is getting paid $3 million more than him this season and that has to be in Suters mind the entire season driving him crazy that Weber did all of that for that much money. I think it would be hard as a player, especially the young guys, to look up to their Captain after this. Being the one who screwed up the plan to lock up the big 3, putting the Preds in a bad situation by trading young promising players and not resigning other key players to free up the money to do it, only to have him get a MAJOR payday that leaves the preds with gaps and riding on the hopes that we will magically have a breakout star player this season.
A player like Shea Weber is not one that fills Bridgestone Arena night in and night out, a player like Steven Stamkos does, and if you ask me who I would rather have for $7.5 million a year, Id take Stamkos in the blink of an eye. At this point I hope we trade Weber sometime this season before the trade deadline for a huge scoring forward (any team other than Detroit,) tell Suter he becomes the #1 guy, and look forward to seeing Rads come back and play with the offensive star we would be able to get from a Weber trade. It might not be so hard to resign Pekka if he knows he would finally have some run support.
*Only using Steven Stamkos as an example because he signed for $7.5m/year, Im not saying that should be the guy we look to trade for*
PAVEL (DANGLE DANGLE, YOU LOVE ME?) DATSYUK!!!
Only way the Wings get #6, but damn I’d jump all over that.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
And just think if Radulov came back…we’d have arguably the two best Russians in hockey!
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
If you got Datsyuk and Radulov came back then you’d have arguably one of the two best Russians in hockey and Alex Radulov.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
by Rob Parker on Aug 3, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We’ll see about that!
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
It's a big reward, but not unexpected.
Even as much of a critic as I often am of this organization, I never thought the re-signing of Weber would get to this point. Probably much blame to around on both sides here, but it’s a failure when a team can’t get their best player to sign long term with them.
What to do now is the question. As Dirk said, it’s not a problem for the 11/12 season, but it’s a big problem in 12/13. Tend to doubt Weber is going to sign for less than that 7.5M figure in his future negotiations. Not necessary to push the panic button just yet, but I’d certainly put some feelers in to other GM’s about what they may be willing to give up for Webs (especially Lou L. in Jersey!).
Rotten situation on top of an already bad off-season.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 6:18 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yea I can see him signing for less. Plus I would think it pushes Suter price up too. at least to 5-6 range.
But I think they had to do the Arbitration. I think they did it to keep from teams making offers. What would of happened if some team would of went crazy and offered 8-9 million? We couldn’t of done that. They may of saved money.
Doesn’t appear by looking at the Devils payroll situation that they couldn’t afford take on an additional 1.5M this season and an 8M contract past 11/12. Not saying they would, but they could do it.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 6:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I doubt the devils would go after weber, having over $13mil locked up in their top 4 d-men(and a lot on multiyear contracts) and they just drafted the top D man in the draft this year.
Heck, if we re-signed Weber and Suter long term, we’d have more than that locked up on two Dmen!
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 7:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The 303:30 is up with the full conference:
http://www.section303.com/the-30330-david-poile-shea-weber-address-the-media-12418
Hockeymetricians, they're ever so pious. Are they doing real science or confirming their bias?
Et tu, Shea?
This whole situation just pisses me off. Not only is this the worst possible scenario that could have happened, but we also we’re led to believe that a deal was inevitable (both sides wanted it) and that it would never get to this point. Now, here we are. This situation is (most likely) going to have severe consequences, not only with the Big 3, but with the locker room as well. As someone said earlier, the locker room’s going to look at Weber differently, which, in this instance, is terrible news.
Also, while the presser did make me feel a little better, I still call BS on most of it. This, ladies and gentlemen, is a complete nightmare that, in my opinion, we’ll one day look back on as a defining moment that changed our organization/team for the worse.
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 6:43 PM EDT reply actions
Grammar edit
…we also were* led…
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh
I’m over it. Weber could sign a long term deal in Jan and all of this hoorah was over nothing. At worst, he’s still an RFA next year. My attention are to Rinne and Suter now. They are the big deals.
Let me complain for one night!!!!! I have a fresh case of miller that needs some attention
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
think the preds ownership group just got put on the 11 month clock to find another investor and strengthen the financial standing of the organization
by predsbelonginblue on Aug 3, 2011 6:44 PM EDT reply actions
I'm surprised at all of you thinking you can keep Weber and Suter and Rinne for a couple years.
That’s gonna be impossible with you guys being a budget team. Do you really think you can pay Weber for $7mil/yr, Suter for $5mil+/yr(likely $5.5mil+), and Rinne for $5mil+/yr and still make a decent playoff team “next year”? Let’s be honest. Rinne and Suter are in for at least $1.5mil/yr raises “if” they wanna give you guys a little discount. You are expecting at least a $3-$3.5mil raise together for both of them + weber getting paid and others getting paid(number of ufa/rfa for you guys). I don’t see it working. Imo, you guys are either gonna trade Suter or Weber by the end of next season for your budget to work. Am I right here? Because I really don’t see how you guys are gonne likely pay afford all this, Suter especially, with people like Ehrhoff/Seabrook/Bieksa getting paid $7mil/yr+ salary in their peak years.
And this goes even more so with Ellis in the system and Blum emerging. Am I right here? Cause I don’t see any logical scenario playing out without Suter/Weber being traded by the end of next season? Input wanted.
No.
But when you have trouble with the first piece, the other two start looking less likely as well. Three would be perfection, but hard to do. Two would be likely and perfectly acceptable. One is a failure, and none… time for rebuild mode.
??? You say keeping 2 would be likely and acceptable, but you think the odd man out would be Rinne then?
I just have a hard time thinking that you guys as a budget team would lock down likely $13mil/yr~ or more in your top 2 d-men.
We’ll see what the new CBA does. It’s impossible to project right now.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Especially considering you guys couldn't afford to keep Ward, you're best checking forward and a decent offensive player.
We could have afforded to keep Ward
He just got overpaid.
29 pts in 80 games is not a decent offensive player.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
29pts is great when he faced the 7th toughest competition among all forwards in the nhl,
played mostly with legwand and a weaker forward, played barely 15min/gm of PP/ES ice time, and was on the 8th worst offensive team last year.
Ok, not.
We were bad last year offensively because guys like Ward were on the PP and on the top 6.
He played against stiff competition cause he’s good at D. Not cause he’s good at offense.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
We were bad offensively cause of guys like Ward...
….not in spite of him.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say that. Ward looks like a great 2nd line checking center with some offensive capabilities for a playoff team.
Maybe you are underestimating how much elite competition can hurt your offensive numbers? And it’s not like he was on your #1PP, he ranked 11th in PP time among forwards for your team, and he was till 7th in PP point production among forwards for your team. So he definitely wasn’t the reason your PP was bad. I think you are really underestimating Ward’s offensive prowess/capabilities. His corsi was very respectable for a guy too that faced very very tough competition, and I’m sure that wasn’t from his defensive prowess alone.
No, he is the reason the offense was bad
Because guys like him and Legwand should never be on the PP because they lack offensive skill. And to quote his numbers for the team doesn’t say much cause our PP was the worst in the NHL. Or at least close to worst.
And I’m not underestimating Ward. I’ve watched him for 3 years now and he’s not that good!
On the other hand, we all said the same thing about Jones, Santorelli and Peverley…all of whom joined the 20 goal club the year after we released them. So who knows?!?!
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You can think what you want, but the numbers speak for themselves. He is great at what he does, and his job is a 2nd line checking winger with some offensive capabilities.
Agree to disagree.
No chance he’s a second liner. If your second line is your checking line, your team isn’t any good.
He’s a great third liner. That’s fine.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Well, I consider Kesler a checking center because of his "duties", so I guess it's based on interpretation.
But to put it in a clearer perspective for you:
-3 forwards play on a line
-The 90th highest scoring forward scored 49pts last year, so top line forwads score 49pts+
-The 180th highest scoring forward scored 34pts last year, so 2nd line forwards score 39pts+.
So Ward if given a bit easier competition or slightly better linemates I think could easily be offensively good enough for a 2nd line role. Why doesn’t Ward get respect around here? You’d think a top checking winger like him would get more props from his fans. Like come on.
dude
you dont have the first damn clue about Ward. Go back to trolling your Isle’s board. players like Ward are a dime a dozen. I think we got him from the Wild’s farm system for league min, then stuck arguably the best defense in the league behind him. Of course that’s going to make him look like a shut down beast.
So why doesn’t every single NSH F look like a shutdown beast? Even relative to the rest of the forwards playing in front of “arguably the best D in the league” Ward looks better than the rest, defensively speaking.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
So why doesn’t every single NSH F look like a shutdown beast?
because not every line is focused entirely on “shutting down” the other team’s best forwards. Ward, Legwand, & Smithson got the call there. I think Leggy & Stinkface had more to do with that line’s defensive production than Ward did.
You can say that the other guys carried the line, that’s fair.
Your first argument “not everyone is a shut down line” is silly. Unless Trotz is clueless, the reason those three are the shutdown line is because they are the best 3 guys at shutting players down.
And when you look at how players played when Ward was on their line, everyone looks better with Ward than without him, which suggests he’s not completely a passenger.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
how many preds games did you watch last season? because it sounds like you’re another silly stat’s junkie. ward is not that good. period.
Ok, so ignore all of the quantitative information and what do you have left? Opinions from biased eyes?
We can do qualitative, Ward has more heart and more intestinal fortitude than the majority of players in the league. I can’t prove it with that “silly” math, but it’s true.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Thank you, a logical Preds fan speaking the truth. Ward is one of the better defensive wingers in the nhl, give him his due respect, especially as his as ex-fans.
Ward gets nothing from me.
Which Joel Ward are you arguing? cause there are most definitely two. Regular season Ward and post-season Ward. Regular season Ward half-ass skated around for two periods then happened to be on the ice when one of our dmen scored in the third… because with 11 goals, he wasn’t burying the puck.
Post season Ward was the anomaly you probably witnessed and the reason DP walked away from an inflated contract. Post season Ward was clutch. I wish the Caps well if that’s who they think they got. I hope them well.
They undoubtedly do not expect him to score at the post-season pace. They signed him because he’s a great defensive player and that’s what the team needed up front.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I think you are really underestimating Ward’s offensive prowess/capabilities.
that was the point i was arguing. I don’t underestimate his defensive capabilities… i think everyone else is overestimating his offensive talent. Joel Ward should be making Jerrid Smithson money.
Well you are underestimating his defensive capabilities. He’s being paid for those, not his offense. If you think his D is the same as Jerrid Smithson’s then you a re underestimating his defensive ability.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I am 100% positive I’m not underestimating Ward’s defensive capabilities… now I may have underestimated the market for his defensive capabilities, but I know what Ward brings to the table defensively. I’ve seen him for the last 3 years. I sincerely hope he is everything yall have wished for in a checker… but please don’t beat yourself up when you’re paying 3m for a guy who can’t score 20 goals… then again, you have Ovie. maybe you don’t need him to do that. We surely weren’t going to pay him what yall gave him. We already have Legwand’s contract to deal with.
Yeah, we don’t need him to score goals. I don’t love the deal, but UFA deals are like that. Sometimes the best current option, even if not optimal, is the best way to go. To make the team better the Caps needed a better checker who’d give an honest effort. Ward fit the bill, so they got him. I appreciate the aggressive approach.
And you say you understand he’s a defensive player, but you keep coming back to his offense. Even on this point, you miss the mark. Every guy that had 20 goal potential got 4.5 on the open market this summer, so 2/3 that is about 13 goals, which is right in line with what Ward should bring. Plus his D.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Interesting comment (are we volleying on 2 blogs today?? :-))
My take is that Ward was overpaid. However, you might be right in the sense that the Capitals would overpay for this since no one else does this in DC. Almost everyone does this in Nashville (thus, he is under-valued with the Preds; probably offered $2M or so at most).
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
if you’re referring to Fleischmann getting 4.5, he’s got 30g potential. Guys like Ryder only got 3.5 and he’s in the mid 20-25 range.
We’re talking Joel Ward. His career potential is probably 15 goals in a season, which is pathetic when he gets 18-20 minutes a game.
Yeah, I’m a silly stats junkie. Nothing I say is going to matter, I’m clearly not objective. Maybe Burton will come around at some point and set you straight.
Please, though, go over to Japers’ Rink and tell them I’m a silly stats junky. That’s going to be hilarious.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
by Rob Parker on Aug 3, 2011 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wait wait wait...
I disagree completely. Ward is not a dime a dozen guy. His particular niche tends to be considered that, but he is well above the rest.
I don’t blame Poile for not re-signing him at 3/yr, but saying he’s so easily replaceable is wrong, IMO.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
I think Tootoo has come a really long way and I agree it’s a good spot for him (second time I’ve been in a Tootoo conversation today), but he’s no Joel Ward nor will he be as effective.
He can’t play the boards as well, he can’t handle the puck as well and he can’t shoot as well. Toots is a different player all together.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Funny, because statistics don't lie and you're knocking a player that played that just left your team.
And a player I could care less about. Not to mention, you know dick about the defintiion of a troll apparently.
This is a good point, and something we've kicked around here.
Using your scenario, the cost of the triplets would be ~$20M a year. Would that be intelligent?
I argue not, especially on a team with a budget. That would make 35-40% of your budget going to three guys, all of whom keep the puck out of the net. So I don’t think that’s a very smart way to allocate funds. Especially considering that Weber-Suter are a D-pair and are never separated. So who do you keep? Weber, Suter or Rinne? You can’t go wrong with any of the three. But, and I am not the only one that feels this way, Suter is the better defensive defenseman while Weber is the cannon from the point.
The best thing about our Preds is defense and goaltending. The big problem about our Preds is scoring. Since we can’t have all three…probably, I am of the opinion that we should trade Weber for one or a couple of guys that can put the puck in the net at an elite level. If we had that, we’d be cup contenders (I believe that…don’t laugh). I mean, our terrible PP, in my opinion, has cost us playoff success, in addition to our paucity of offense. Shea can put the puck in the net, but we need forwards who can do this.
So CAN we sign all of them? Yes.
SHOULD we sign all of them? No.
Maybe this is the first domino to fall to try and do this….in the future.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m baffled. How is giving up one of the two stud D the most sensible solution? Lunacy.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
If the choice is between a Vezina goalie or a 40pts 25min/gm d-man, I get rid of the d-man. And you think I'm the lunatic? Wow.
I think anyone that chooses a goalie over a Norris-nominee D is a lunatic, yes.
And way to go ahead and just give Rinne the Vezina, how about I just go ahead and give Shea Weber the Norris and Hart just because.
You don’t seem to have a good grasp of the economic dynamics and relative markets of G, D, and F in the league right now. Supply and demand and all that, more goalie depth means you don’t pay a ton to keep one.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
So you honestly think Rinne won't get $5mil/yr in the open market next year with a .930/.925+ save percentage?
Come on man, I understand you’re point, but don’t act like Rinne isn’t getting paid on the open market or that Rinne is gonna bring back more assets in a trade then Weber. Or that Rinne isn’t more important to the team then Weber. It’s like debating trading Brodeur or Niedermayer from the Devils during their cup years, it’s always gonna be Niedermayer.
Rinne might get 5, but I’m not convinced of it. We’ll see who needs a goalie. Would anyone have guessed Nabokov couldn’t even get an offer for 4+ and would bolt for Russia? Or that Vokoun wouldn’t get more than 3 so he’d just take a huge discount for a contender? The goalie market isn’t what it was.
And the NJD comparison is spurious. It wasn’t a cap era, so the dynamics are completely different.
I agree Weber would bring back more than Rinne. And that’s why you keep Weber, because he’s more valuable. If NSH wants to be a perpetual farm team, then, sure, trade all your studs for futures.
No fucking chance Rinne is more important to the team than Weber.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
The NJD era was for player comparison, not cap reasons. And don't dismiss it, it's completely logical and relative given team worth.
Rinne is more important to this team then Weber is though.
Look at the team ranks in PP with Weber, look at the team’s rank in defense. Are you going to say that’s all Weber and Suter? Come on, Rinne is a good giant goalie that is finally putting everything together. An elite goalie is a lot harder to replace then a 25min/gm 45pts d-men no matter what way you look at it. It’s not his fault though that the market would bring in more for Weber then Rinne.
Nabakov was 35. And Vokoun wants a cup. Kind of different situations. And bother were a lot older while Rinne is in his prime.
Vokoun wanted a Cup after he didn’t get money. He didn’t want to take the pay cut initially.
You didn’t clarify anything with the NJD statement.
An elite D is more valuable than an elite G, period.
It’s not Rinne’s fault that the market would bring in more for Weber, but it’s still an indication of the market being saturated with goalies.
And, again, what’s the marginal increase in performance from an average G to elite G. BSH did a bunch of stuff on it this summer, and it’s not a whole lot.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Hold on
Do we have an Islanders fan and a Caps fan arguing on a Preds board? Nice.
by musamonster on Aug 4, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, Vokoun got 2nd pinning because Bryz was off the market.
And we have no idea what/if Vokoun turned down. If I was him and already amassed tens of millions of dollars in my career, I’d take a pay cut to play for a contender to try and win a cup too.
Rinne isn’t in that situation though. He’s hasn’t even made $10mil in his career yet.
Elite goalie>Elite D. What example you want me to throw at you. How about this: Who would you rather have Lundqvist or Weber? Lundqvist or Doughty? It’s a no brainer for me and I go Lundqvist. Rinne>Weber.
Don’t think goaltending is as important as I say, just ask the Bruins and the Nucks if great goaltending in the playoffs is important? They’ll laugh if you say Weber is more important then Rinne in the playoffs.
And to clarify the NJD thing, it’s just a if you can only keep 1, you keep the elite goalie(Brodeur) over the elite d-man(Niedermayer).
I’d take Weber or Doughty over Lundqvist.
And there’s a huge body of work that suggests that Brodeur only has his reputation because he got to play behind Stevens and Niedermayer and that system, so it’s not that clear cut.
BOS got historically great goaltending, if that’s what you want to bank on, then fine. I’d rather go with the model that the teams that don’t get historically good goaltending follow. If you’re confident that a goalie will give you historically great goaltending, then sign him up.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I'm sorry, but we are at 2 different ends of the spectrum.
And if you’d rather Doughty or Weber over Lundqvist, there is no convincing you. I’d rather take the BEST PLAYER at the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION on the ice then the best player at a less important position.
And great goaltending in the playoffs wins cups, and elite goalies bring that: Rinne. Not Weber. 60min/gm .930SP Rinne >25min/gm 50pts Weber.
You can’t predict great playoff goaltending. When did Lundquist become the best goalie in the league, and how far has that gotten NYR?
The drop from top goalies to average is smaller than with other positions.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Lundqvist:
“earmed” a gold medal, stole many games for and kept the rangers in games they shouldn’t have been in, brought his A game in the playoffs against #1 and #2 and #3 seeds as lower seeds, which is pretty impressive, and more.
How many Lundqvists are in the league though? And how many Weber comaprables are in the league? You can replace a Weber a hell of a lot easier then you can replace a Lundqvist. Elite goalies are irreplacable. 40pts d-men are easier to find. You say the dropoff is smaller, but tell that to a team that’s actually lost a top goalie.
Elite goalies can steal/win games for you when they are hot, how many elite d-men steal games for teams? Come on man. How are you gonna act like a 25min/gm d-man has more of an outcome on a game then a top goalie that plays a full game in a more important position? The SC 1 year ago proved this, Pronger couldn’t stop everyone all the time and their “average” goaltending cost the Flyers the cup.
I’m done arguing we aren’t gaining any ground and I know I’m not stepping away from my side here because I can’t even fathom how a 25min/gm 40pts d-man could be more important then a top goalie that steals games for you, has the greatest impact on a team winning/losing a game, and is much more important in crunch time.
Yes but...
…. elite goalies only take up one position, therefore there is a saturation.
D takes up 6/7 active slots.
Plus that Flyers/Blackhawks finals neither team had good goaltending. Niemi sucked less.
Saturated? Name me the goalies in this league you consider elite then to prove that the league is saturated with elite goalies?
Niemi was coming into his own and had a good playoffs(playing amazing at times), and Niemi had a great season last year.
The flyers had a beyond stacked defense, but that obviously wasn’t enough.
I'm gonna agree with you on Rinne
He was our team MVP in my opinion.You gotta look to the numbers. He was tops in both goals allowed and save percentage. That means the D might be giving him easier shot to save, but they are still allowing plenty of shots, and he’s making the saves.
And to add to that, they say a best defense is a great offense and he definitely doesn't have that padding his numbers.
I think he is being underrated here, and around the league. The man has come into his own finally this season and is likely gonna be an elite for I’d say at least the next 4-6yrs if he stays healthy.
There's a few I would bet on
and he might be one of the new ones.
Rinne shouldn’t be getting 5+ in this goalie market, so there’s where the savings come. If one of them is the odd man out, it’s the goalie without even a half-second of hesitation. The goalie market is swamped, NSH churns out goalies, and over the course of a season the marginal gain of an elite goalie over an average goalie simply isn’t enough to justify the marginal expense. That is especially true when you have guys like Suter and Weber to lock up.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
In what world do Vezina finalist's not deserve to be paid in the top 10 for goalies? Come on.
And it does make a difference when Rinne’s return isn’t gonna be close to the same as Weber or Suter’s on the trade market.
Rinne’s return isn’t the same because he’s not as valuable! “Let’s trade the more valuable guy because he is more valuable.” That’s a solid plan.
The world that Vezina finalists don’t deserve to be paid top 10 is the world in which the top ten paid goalies signed deals before the market for goalies became saturated. Several of those guys were overpaid even in that market, but now they look even worse. Sure, Rinne is better than Cam Ward, but if I was NSH I wouldn’t want to base my contract for Rinne on Cam Ward’s contract.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Too bad, because Rinne is an UFA, and a team that needs a goalie is gonna pay him.
Just look what happened with Bryz, best goalie in the offseason and the Flyers signed him for 5.7mil/yr long term, $10mil in salary next year. And you don’t think there is at least 1 team willing to throw Rinne $5mil/yr in his prime? Come on, that’s just hysterical.
So what team is going to be in that market? Who needs a goalie now that PHI got one?
And PHI’s deal with Bryz has been almost universally derided, resulted in massive dislocation to the roster, and is a deal that basically all of Broadstreet Hockey hates with a passion. Are you sure that’s the one you want to use as your example? Plus, you’re ignoring the “owner mandate” part of the Bryz deal.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Off the top of my head:
NJ needs a Brodeur replacement, Anaheim could depending on Hiller’s health, Jets might wanna build around a top goalie, and why not the Panthers because they seem to be buying anything so why not add them.
All I did was show that people are willing to pay for goalies, and the top 10 paid goalies in the nhl are making $5mil/yr in salary, so why wouldn’t a vezina goalie be asking and getting that on the open market, especially with a couple of options out there.
Ducks won’t be going huge on a goalie though. We need to afford Getz and Douchey’s raises. Probably in the Hiller range of money not above though.
"Thank you very much fans and let’s go for the next game together!"
— Lubomir Visnovsky
I rec’d that shit.
Because the market changed so those top ten goalies making 5+ were overwhelmingly signed before the market collapsed. It’s like pointing at house values from 2006 and saying they should sell the same today.
No fucking way Lou Lam pays that kind of money for Rinne when he has other fish to fry.
Jets have Pavelec, Panthers have Markstrom, and it doesn’t look like either team is trying to force either guy out of the crease.
All you did is show that one team is willing to still pay goalies like that, and it’s a team that constantly bucks the trend of the NHL markets.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Wrong, I showed you 3 teams that could be in the market for a top goalie next year with reasoning.
And you gave reasons why you think they won’t, but I gave reasons why they would.
Devils-Who better to replace Brodeur then Rinne? A team run on great goaltending has Brodeur’s $5.2mil/yr expiring so why not?
Jets-Pavelec is expiring and Pav’s is nothing special right now and may never be. Why not replace him with a proven top guy in the position with where a team has the greatest improvement from by upgrading?
Ducks-I explained Hiller’s health questions.
You don’t like it, fine. But don’t act like a playoff team with a weak link of goalie or a team with an older goalie wouldn’t wanna bring in an elite goalie to help their team and pay $5mil/yr to do it. I’m not saying anyone is gonna pay him Bryz money at $10mil/yr for some years, but $5mil/yr is far from being far fetched.
Sure, I could say that all 30 NHL teams would give Rinne 5 million. That doesn’t make it anything close to realistic.
Unless the NJD owner demands that they chase Rinne, they won’t. Lou won’t do that, especially not with Parise to be dealt with.
Maybe the Isles will go after him.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
This:
“Sure, I could say that all 30 NHL teams would give Rinne 5 million. That doesn’t make it anything close to realistic.”
It means that it is a possibility, and if he’s the top goalie in the market, teams in need will do the bidding for him. Sure, 2nd tier goalies might not be paid as much, but elites always have a market and the top D-man/Forward/Goalie of the market always gets paid/overpaid. Look this year: Bryz/Richards/Ehrhoff-Wisniewski. If Rinne hits the market, expect him to make $5mil/yr without question.
And I’m not sure if you know, but the Devils cleaned up cap space. So with Brodeur coming off the books next year and Parise resigning for $9mil/yr, give Rinne $6.2mil/yr, and still ice a great team.
I hear
the Canucks could use a goalie :)
and is a deal that basically all of Broadstreet Hockey hates with a passion. Are you sure that’s the one you want to use as your example? Plus, you’re ignoring the "owner mandate" part of the Bryz deal.
Aaaaaannnnnnd, this is a point we can 100% agree on Fehr. :-)))
Rinne is IMO the most likely person on the Preds not to get a long-term deal.
FYI, somewhere else, you mention that the cap floor is likely to go down in the next CBA or at least not go up as much as it has. I completely agree there too. However, this is actually worse for Nashville keeping its big 3 together.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
It depends on
if there is a general rollback in all player salaries.
Well whether it is better or worse depends on what it does to the top end salaries. If it forces Weber and Suter’s numbers to come down it could be better.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Don’t think so, especially if the floor is simply allowed to increase more gradually than the cap, which DragonGirl and I strongly believe. The big market teams still spend $7M AAV on the big dudes which makes the floor teams spend the same amount, but on fewer players.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
17goalies in the NHL are making $3.5mil in salary next year and the market only keeps going up.
UFA gets people paid if they want to, it doesn’t bring their value down. If Rinne is looking for $, he’ll get $5mil+/yr from somebody, I’d bet strong on it.
No, the goalie market does not keep going up, it’s been going down.
And I asked which of those goalies making 3.5+ signed those deals in the last 2-3 seasons, not the total number.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
And I showed you that more then half the teams in the nhl are paying a goalie more then $3.5mil next year.
Top goalies in their prime rarely hit the open market, and if Rinne does, expect him to get paid $5mil+/yr.
Don’t get me wrong though. I know what you are trying to say. It’s plausible but not gonna happen.
Ugh. Those deals were signed before the market collapsed, that’s the salient point. Not how much they make now, but when the deal was signed.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
That's fine, but as the cap increases salaries don't go down. And elite goalies will always be in demand.
Elite goalies will always be in demand? Except when they are named Vokoun or Nabokov, I guess.
I don’t know how you could look at the trend in goalie contracts and not see them going down. The allocation of cap space is clearly trending towards a smaller percentage going towards goaltending.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
We don't know what Vokoun turned down, and Vokoun and Nabakov were old.
Since when have you ever seen 35yr+ goalies signing multiyear deals at top dollar? Especially after the Huet/Khabibulan contracts.
I don’t know how we can see goalies like Lehtonen being paid $3.5mil/yr in this market and you don’t think Rinne is gonna fetch $5mil/yr?
And elite goalies will always be in demand.
This is entirely untrue and misunderstands the goalie market crash in July 2010 that continued in July 2011. Not only that, but the fact that Luongo and Thomas had such performance variance will likely decrease the market.
Buying a $5M goalie is like buying a house in Phoenix in 2007.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
Goalie market crash? This isn't the stock market.
And great goalies always get paid when they wanna get paid. Name me one elite goalie in his prime that hit UFA and didn’t get paid when he wanted a big contract. That’s the situation Rinne is in.
This isn’t the stock market
Except, it is. Welcome to the CBA.
Vokoun is the obvious example, although he did want to play for a contender and that reduced his cap hit somewhat. The goalies in Colorado in 2011 got far less than they would have in 2008 or 2009.
The problem with your comment is determining “elite”; there have been pages of discussion about this on BSH to which I’ll direct this.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
CBA is what it is now. It hasn't changed yet and likely the cap isn't going down.
Probably stay the same with lower cap increases, but that’s it. Market values aren’t going down. Vokoun took a pay cut to play for a contender, and the 2 teams(flyers and avs) that needed goaltending the most solved their problems before Vokound signed. 1 got top dollar, rightfully so or not the flyers threw that obscene money at him. And seeing Bryz get paid $10mil/yr in his prime makes a very logical case for Rinne to be making $5mil/yr in his prime.
Elite is up to interpretation, but 1 more season of Vezina caliber play and it’s easy to slide Rinne into the elite category.
You're just mad that....
…. the rest of the NHL cannot be stuck with DiPietro-type contracts.
lol. I could care less for now. But if he's not gone or playing good when we are a salary cap team, then I'll be a little mad.
Right now him being here with what position my team is in makes me impartial. I think he can turn it around, but I think he might also be done.
This comment obviously comes without research on the goalie $$ trends. Trust Fehr and I that we have done pretty extensive analysis on this at BSH and it simply is not true. The market crashed in 2010 and stayed crashed this year.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
It seemed to get all screwed up when Biron signed for super cheap…to me anyways….
"Thank you very much fans and let’s go for the next game together!"
— Lubomir Visnovsky
I rec’d that shit.
Yes. This was part of it, and obviously we at BSH were following this.
Curiously, many of you apparently have forgotten that Dan Ellis also got way less than originally predicted as well in 2010.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
Dan Ellis
Wasn’t Rinne. He was more of a journeyman who had some big moments. Rinne has more potential long term than Ellis.
Missing the point. He was part of the great goalie salary crash. All goalie salaries went down.
Not saying Rinne won’t get $3.5. Maybe $4. Doubtful to get $5. Ellis was rumored to be getting $3 or more. He got $1.5,
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
But
Rinne has that Special One potential that is harder to get, potential that teams might pay a little more to get. Ellis type goalies are dime a dozen.
Exactly. It's different when we are talking elite goalies in their prime that never hit the market.
I’d wager a lot of money saying Rinne is getting paid $5mil/yr+ if he wants to when/if he hits UFA. When we are talking elite goalies in their prime it doesn’t matter.
I can’t see a Vezina trophy candidate getting less than a 4m per year offer. I think most here in Nashville are expecting a # leaning toward the 5 on the absolute low end.
by Shawn Kehoe on Aug 4, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just want to point out that our own
Thomas Vokoun is playing for the Capitals for 1.5 million this year. Don’t tell me that goalie prices are going up. There’s more talented and proven goalies out there than there are jobs. That makes it a buyers market. Ray Emery doesn’t have a deal yet either.
That’s not even talking about all the unproven goalies out there that will be called up, and take over the first job. How many times did that happen last year?
Ray Emery played 10gms last year and then blew up in the playoffs against a mediocre at best offense.
And Vokoun obviously took a discount. And I’d rather not repeat what already has been discussed.
Define blew up....
…. he was terrible in the playoffs.
He was GREAT in getting the Ducks to the 4th seed.
Blew up: gave up 3.2goals/gm in pressure time when it mattered most to a sub-par to even considered bad offense. And had a sub-.900 save percentage in 4 out of the 5gms he started.
That’s a blow up.
“Great” getting the Ducks to the 4th seed is interpretation. He started 9gms, hald the starts your average backup goalie will do. That is hardly being the reason for them getting to the 4th seed. I think arguably having one of the best forward lines in hockey and decent all around play from their team got them their, and a goalie named Hiller.
And you’d be crazy to think Emery was in for a pay day at playing 10gms at an above average level. Great backups rarely get paid top dollar and they play twice as many games as that an above average level. Emery was “never” getting paid for what he did in such a small small sample size, especially with how bad he played in the playoffs.
Ok I was going for "blow up" in slang terms
As in he was GREAT.
We’re on the same page there!
As in Emery was NOT great
Did we clear that up????
Bieksa is making 4.6mil/yr, but he is making $7mil this year, 4.5mil next, 5mil the year after, 4mil the next year, and a big discounted 2.5mil the next.
Yes, he gave the nucks a discount, but he is getting paid around market value for 4 out of the 5 years of his contract.
Duncan Keith is making 8 next year, and no less than 7.5 for the next 5 years on a 12 year contract.
On a 1 year deal Shea Weber is worth 7.5 million. I don’t know what some people are getting upset about, the guy got paid what he is worth. If a long term deal is worked out, you will probably see a cap hit of 5-6 but with a salary that starts high and decreases throughout the term of the deal.
He is one of the best players in the League. That is how much players this good cost.
Yeah, the laundry list of high paid d-men goes on:
D-men making next year:
Ehrhoff-$10mil
Chara-$8.5mil
Keith-$8mil
Pronger-$7.6mil
Campbell-$7.1mil
Seabrook/Bieksa/Wisniewski-$7mil
Redden/Phaneuf/Bouwmeester/Boyle-$6.5mil+
Now cut that list down to RFA contracts. The picture changes quite a bit.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Because RFA matters hugely. RFA to UFA is apples to oranges. They are different markets. It’s the reason Alzner got less than 2 million per, for example. RFAs never get paid UFA market value.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Well, Weber has a huge track record of repeated performance and is nearer to his prime, so it's not close to the same thing there.
I do agree, for a RFA contract it is high, but maybe it is because it was team-elected arbitration that the arbitrater was leaning towards the d-man because of that and maybe Weber proved himself well in the negotiations but DP didn’t. I wasn’t there, but Weber got market value.
It shouldn’t matter who elected arbitration.
And my point is that “market value” is misleading. He should have gotten RFA Market Value, not UFA market value. How he set the market for D as an RFA is beyond me. He should have to be far and away the best D in the league to do that. He isn’t.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
That's fine. Overpaid is a relative term then, just as Market Value here. It could be arguable either way.
Did Weber get what he deserved? Arguably Yes
Did Weber get market value? Arguably Yes
Did Weber get a lot of money for a RFA/Overpaid? Arguably Yes.
I don’t think he doesn’t deserve the money, I’m just pissed for what it means for Mike Green next year. He basically cannot help but have better numbers than Weber after this next season, and arbitrators love numbers, so if he goes to arbitration he’s going to make a killing.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Have to disagree with one point here. When talking about elite RFA’s like Stamkos, Crosby, Ovechkin and yes, Weber, the RFA vs. UFA salary comparison doesn’t really hold. Elite players get elite $$$ regardless of their free agency status. You really have to give them top dollar to keep them from testing the UFA market. We’re finding this out first hand right now.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 4, 2011 1:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
none of those RFA's besides Weber are defensemen
Apples to oranges again.
So an elite Dman doesn’t get paid top dollar in this league?
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 4, 2011 11:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty general statement.
Besides Weber, which “elite” D did he mention as a RFA?? Or even you? One that went to arbitration?
Lots of RFA d-men have got paid though, and they are surely comaprables in arbitration:
Phaneuf$6.5mil/yr for 6yrs
Seabrook$5.8mil/yr for 5yrs
Keith$5.54mil/yr for 13yrs
Yandle$5.25mil/yr for 5yrs
Mike Green$5.25mil/yr for 4yrs
Jack johnson(with his terrible D)$4.35mil/yr for 7yrs
With a few those contracts and the market increasing, it’s not a reach thinking Weber would get (more money for less security) $6.5-$7.5mil/yr on a 1yr deal.
And we still don’t know what Doughty will get to compare them
I don't disagree with the $6 to $7 range...
…. but $7.5 pushed it well into Weber’s favor
(I know it is just $500,000 better, but that is sometimes the difference in keeping a Joel Ward versus losing him)
Bieksa
is due $7 mil. His cap hit is $4.6 mil. 2 different numbers.
A cap hit of 5 or 6M? Won’t be a cent under 7M cap hit for Weber, no matter what the length of the contract is.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 11:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Holy Crap! Just stop that Nashville had to pay 7.5 mil and overpaid...
Sounds like alot of people in here are brainwashed with trying to reform a team with min contracts instead of keeping a legitimate cornerstone of a team.
Superstars get superstar money. It’s not like this is going to be the biggest contract ever for all time forever and ever amen…
Trading him is stupid, because you’ll never get it back unless you hit a Crosby type player in the draft.
Let’s just see what happens now. Front load a long term contract for Shea and make it cap friendly for the long run. Yanno, like other teams do and get Suter and Peks extended.
Supposedly we have some new money coming in September. Let’s tap him up!
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
by BrianAdsFan on Aug 3, 2011 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
But when you're a budget team, it's either the the pay man his money or expect him to walk eventually.
Would you rather have 4 1st round picks, 3 of whom are players that play for your team for 5yrs+ at a reasonable salary and 1 of whom is a top 6 forward/top 4 d-men or Weber for 2 more years?
"Budget team"
is relative. This isn’t quite like 03-4 where the Preds had a $22 mil payroll, and the Rangera and Red Wings were $70 mil +. Now it’s “our payroll is 80-85% of the Rangers (or whoever)”. The biggest problem with a lower payroll is that Preds can’t afford too many mistakes, buyouts or paid injuries.
And you guys have to try and ice a competitive team, which I'm not sure would be easy or possible with $13mil+/yr locked up in 2 d-men or
18.5+mil/yr locked up in 3 players(Rinne), or 27.5mil+/yr in 5 players(Erat + Legwand), or 31.7mil/yr+ locked up in 6 players(Fisher). Understand the point I’m trying to make?
I know you are and we appreciate it.
Old math hater is just spouting crap. This wouldn’t be a problem, except that I very much dislike it when people do it to well intending ‘visitors’.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
if you’ve got an opinion about weber’s 7.5m contract… cool. are Suter & Rinne going to be around? what’s your thought?
but don’t try to argue the Preds checking line with me when you saw maybe 2 regular season predator games.
What about Nick Spaling? do you have an opinion on him?
Really? Now I’ve only watched 2 games and on top of using all of those silly statistics.
I’ve commented plenty on the “big 3”, but what you’re doing is not commenting at all.
This:
a² + b² = c² blablablachildish and stupid. His point is how much money is too much to “wrap” up in x amount of players before you’re complaining about using 100% of what you’ve spent to cover 100% of the active roster. It’s a good point.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Our problem isn’t so much that we have 3 players in line for big paydays as it is that they are 2 Dmen and a goalie. If it were a forward, Dman and goalie, it would make more structural sense within our budget framework, but 20M or more on a mid 50M budget for 3 defensive end players makes it incredibly difficult to improve our scoring problems.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 7:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ah, I see. More of an offensive issue that can't be solved. But doesn't that still coincide with my point that one of Suter or Weber should be moved before the end of next season due to budget/(offensive-too) issues?
Or at least throw in Rinne too, but he’s the least likely to be traded, a great goalie is the rock to a team, just ask the Rangers.
Actually, Rinne is the one I would move, but we’ve had that argument around here often before. Whoever gets you the best return is the one to probably move.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 7:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And that's Weber, not Rinne.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 3, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t argue with that. Webs would bring back the biggest return of the three.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 8:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And that’s Weber because D are so much more valuable than Gs! The goalie market is saturated so nobody is going to give a king’s ransom for the guy.
Best return cuts both ways. Sure, it helps you guys, but it’s also an indication of who has more value. If one guy is bringing in much more return, it’s because he’s the more valuable player. So then you say you trade the more valuable guy precisely because he is more valuable? Add in that stars rarely bring back anything close to equal value in return and it’s an even clearer decision.
If Shea isn’t going to stay, then trade him and get value back now. But if there is any chance to keep him, you do that.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
See...
… I think if cards are played correctly, we can keep Rinne here for an absolutely reasonable price. If he chooses to leave though, drop in Lindback and move on.
The above point is NULL and VOID if Pekka’s numbers are greater than or equal to this year’s. At that point, it would be worth considering that the guy is more than above average and possibly for the long term.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Reasonable means a million different things to a million different people. I’m not going to debate that you can keep Rinne, obviously you can. I’m saying that it’s not worth throwing big money at a goalie in this day and age because you can save money, grab a league-average goalie, and be a better team if you wisely use the savings. The marginal difference between average and elite isn’t that big, and goalies aren’t very predictable.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I'll attach some numbers for clarification on what I'm thinking.
Let me know what you think, I could be way off base.
SV% < .925 – Let him sign for a little more or let him go.
SV% >/= .925 – Consider going up to, but not exceeding 5/yr. Obviously observe to goalie market at the end of the year.
These are rough guidelines, not like we throw him away for a .924 automatically or anything.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
If you keep him below 5 I wouldn’t complain. I don’t think it makes sense to pay a goalie 5+ anymore.
And have people forgotten the ability NSH has to churn out quality goalies? Even if Rinne is the best they’ve ever had, the drop isn’t that steep. Did the team really fall apart when Vokoun left?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I agree...
…over 5 for a goalie who’s name doesn’t start with ‘J’ and end in ‘esus’ is a little nuts these days.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
And unfortunately for the rest of us PHI just locked up Jbryzgalovesus.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
especially for a team that doesn’t spend to the cap…
"Thank you very much fans and let’s go for the next game together!"
— Lubomir Visnovsky
I rec’d that shit.
Hell, even a team that does.
Consider what it did to Philly this off season.
If we don’t pay him $5 Million, someone will. Then we’re free to pick up a Vokoun a couple of days later for WAY less. Only if Pekka has another Vezina season do we consider forking out that kind of money.
If his SV% is over .925 for 2 straight seasons, a very pretty straight trend line starts to develop.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
But even then, what’s the marginal gain over average goaltending over the course of a year?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
See, I think there are more variables in that question than immediately noticed. I agree, that your team GA will likely not decrease at the same rate as your goalie’s worth in cash increases.
I don’t want to call it the intangibles, but consider the difference between a team in front of a good goalie and a team in front of an amazing goalie.
Does the team have more freedom to pinch with D men? Do the forwards forecheck higher and harder? Does his presence irritate snipers on other teams?
Maybe, maybe not. It gets a little silly at that point, but you can see what I’m saying. If you can lock down a franchise goalie that is a grade above the rest, there are other advantages that might justify a $5 Mil hit.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Those are fair points, but they aren’t testable and they wouldn’t alter my conclusion. There are ways to coach around those issues so that you don’t really have to get too caught up in them.
I also think those effects about how to play in front of a better/worse goalie decrease as you raise through the ranks.
And the flip side is that if you load up your D/F, you ask your goalie to do less, and have better players doing the forechecking, etc. See: Detroit.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
No doubt.
Don’t get me wrong either, I let Rinne go before the other 2. My thought is you don’t just toss him because he gets close to $5 million, that with Rinne (if his numbers stay high) you’ve got to consider other aspects.
If we have to choose between him and adding a top 6 fwd though, I’m eating Smores in your camp.
Gonna miss you Joel Ward...
Go Predmirals!
Grizzled…We are gonna agree!!!!!
To fit our team budget and philospohy, I believe we could go sign a Hannon ( pretty good d man) or someone like him still available, get a legit top 6 forward ( not some pie in the sky 50+ goals, but a 25 goal, 40 assist, 65-75 point guy) in a trade for Weber plus a couple of draft picks.
Then lock up Rinne and Suter. I don’t believe, as a team, would be any worse. We still lean on the young d men, but bring in a vet.
The world will end today, LOL!
I would think Weber would net us a good 30 goal guy, and that is exactly what we need here. Don’t want to lose Weber, but I just can’t see us ever winning anything with over 1/3 of our payroll spent on 3 defensive end players.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 7:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
As much as I like defense, I agree. A 3 mil available d man and a 4.5 mil forward allows us to lock up the big 2.
I also don’t want to get into this again with a forward we may not be able to afford.
Let’s do a deal with a team in the east, though….. LOL
One team in the east located in Newark, NJ is of particular interest to me. :)
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 8:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is there any way
we can trade him to Leafs and get Franson back? Maybe they throw in a Kessel and we throw in a Lebda? :)
That would not be a fair return for someone like Weber, IMO.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 11:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Matt Carle and Schenn for Weber and something else (that’s the starting negotiation position).
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
I'd say we'd want
some proven scoring. We’ve got talent in the pipeline, we just need some proven talent right now.
OK! Jeff Carter and Carle….oh, wait. :-((
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
I was hoping
Maybe Hartnell could have come back, that was before Carter and Richards got traded.
We'll trade Hartnell Kimmo and whoever you want for Shea right now
Just get them to waive their NMC.
Hunter Pence will not guarantee a WS, but, then, neither does Carlos Beltran.
It’d make more sense to be 1F and the 2D. Paying a goalie more than 5 million makes zero sense in this climate.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
I agree with that, but what would Rinne bring back in return is the big question. If, as you say, the goalie market is over saturated, then the return for Rinne may not be that great. I tend to think we could get a good return for him, but how many teams are looking for a high dollar goaltender (he will likely get a big payday after this season if he plays like he did in 10/11). It’s not an easy call to make.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 11:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You may just have to suck it up and deal with a lesser return or let him walk. Sometimes that’s how it goes. But I wouldn’t trade one of my two best players, both top 10 D in the entire league, just because they get more return. As I’ve said a few times, there is a reason they would bring more return.
Maybe let Rinne go UFA and hope the market falls out from under him and he realizes he won’t get a huge payday and then he comes back. Pushing that tax-free salary would be a nice touch in the negotiations.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
By the way....
…in response to your previous comments, it was unanimous among the team and the coaching staff that Pekka was our MVP last year. In fact, in addition to being 2nd in Vezina voting, he was also 4th in Hart trophy voting.
He IS all that and then some.
So the fact that we could get him for $5M as you say is even more of a bonus because that’d free up an additional $2.5M for a scoring forward. That Weber would get the most return, in my opinion, doesn’t suggest that he’s our best player. Instead, its more related to what his value to other NHL teams is. For the Preds, he is not our best player or our most valuable, Pekka is. That’s why you offload Weber, not Pekka.
PS: Interesting jousting with OzzyFan
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pekka was for one year. In a rolling 4 year period it’ll be Weber.
And who do you think is more important in the locker room, the community, and the marketing department.
Rinne had a great year, no doubt, but how much worse does NSH look if you substitute merely average goaltending for what Rinne gave you, or if Gooback played the whole season as the starter?
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Without Pekka we'd have come in last place in the Western Conference.
I’m convinced of that.
And I appreciate that you think we can just plug in any dude to play goalie cause Nashville is a goalie farm. But, I don’t see anybody ready to play for us right now. Lindback is certainly not the answer.
Finally, there’s no way for us to look anything but stupid after this arbitration debacle. We are the laughing stock of the entire NHL as a shit-ass southern non-traditional market who has no chance at success. Now, there is no way to get around that. But that’s not a good enough reason to spend 40% of your budget on a goalie and two Dmen.
On the other hand, all eyes in Nashville this year will be evaluating the relative importance of the triplets. One of them has to go. One always has had to go. For my money, I’d let Weber go. That’s just me though. Sounds like you’d vote for Rinne.
Question for you: What’s the greater impact? Losing a top 5 goalie for an average one? Or losing a top 5 defenseman for an average one? I would argue for the Predators that it would be the former, whereas for a team like Washington that can score, it would be the latter.
Gooback?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re convinced of that, but I’m positive that math says the same thing. How many marginal goals did Pekka save over an average goalie? How many standings points is that (about 6 goals per win)?
No way you’d be a basement team.
Nobody thinks you’re a laughingstock, I don’t think.
I say losing an elite D for an average D is worse than G because the delta is so much higher.
South park joke. They tuk ahr jaaaaaaaaaaahbs.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
Hmmmmm...........
………..I’m not a hockey scientist, just a season ticket holder.
What’s Pekka worth? Let’s say on average that the Preds give up 33 shots on goal (or 25). Pekka’s SV% was .93 and the average in the NHL is probably .91. Thus, every three games (or 4), Pekka gave up 2 fewer goals, right? Considering that most of our games were one goal games, and that we (I believe) had the best one goal W-L record (at least we were something like 35-5 when giving up less than three goals), that’d make his GAA go from 2.10 to 2.77 (or 2.60). That’d make a huge difference in the outcome of our season. Anyhow, had we given up 40-60 more goals last year, we’da been in trouble.
Pekka > Weber.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I can't believe I'm about to get sucked back into this.... :)
It’s not about what other teams will pay for Rinne. It’s about what he brings to THIS TEAM. Without superior or elite goaltending, a la Rinne, we don’t get into the 2nd round of the playoffs. That is simply the way this team is built and the way it’s coached. A single star forward, unless he’s of the same caliber as Stamkos, simply will not get it done. We give up too much. As much as I love Dwayne Roloson (a $3M goalie) he’s not good enough to take this team to the next level. We must have a Rinne in net. Trading Rinne is utter insanity, insanity, I say ;). The goalie market is too weird to predict, so we don’t know if he’ll command $5M or $7M as a UFA, and Rinne is an asset that we can’t afford to lose right now. That’s not true for other teams. It is true for our team.
Besides, if I were Rinne, I’d sign a shorter contract anyway to let the market (hopefully) come back around in a few years. By then we’ll know more on Lindy, who’ll still be young enough to be affordable.
"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.
by CAustin on Aug 4, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ummmmm.....I think that's what I said?
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
This. How can someone undervalue the drop off from elite to average goaltending.
Even the drop off from .93 to .92 would be 20-30goals more given up. Does Weber score or produce 20-60 more goals then the aveage d-man a year? I don’t think so. Can Weber steal games as easily as Rinne can when on top his game? No. Is Rinne more important to the team in the season and in the playoffs because of this? Yes.
I’m really running out of things to argue, but I just don’t see how elite goaltending isn’t more important then having 1 elite d-man.
Head, meet brick wall.
I don’t know if you realize that this is a “discussion” that Preds fans have had multiple times this summer. “Don’t trade Rinne” used to be part of my signature. I can tell you from personal experience that either they value the goalies or they don’t. You can’t convince them otherwise, just like they can’t convince me that good enough goaltending is good enough.
"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Oh yes.
Without Rinne or someone close to his caliber, we need a new 20-goal scorer to get back to where we started from and another 20 goals more than we had last season to get the offense we say we want. That’s a 40-goal difference from last year. There’s also a whole non-numbers argument (confidence, leadership, ability to communicate with the defense) that I’ve put up. I am on the same page as you—goaltending will make or break this team and there’s a world of difference between Rinne and Lindback (or Roli).
But I no longer expect to convince anyone. I’ve had this argument too many times to count. It keeps coming back up.
"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.
in the other thread...
it is actually a 50 goal scorer we would need.
And that is the LOW end of what we need.
The difference between a .920 and .930 goalie is about 15-20 goals, depending on workload (based on Pekka’s workload last season, it would have been 19).
The question is, however, can we reasonably expect another .930 season from Peks? It’s a dangerous game to look at a guy’s career season and establish that as a benchmark going forward.
Managing Editor of On the Forecheck, SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators, and HockeyGearHQ, a site devoted to news, reviews, and deals on hockey equipment and accessories. Catch me on Twitter, or join OTF on Facebook!
This.
Didn’t Pekka finish with the 4th highest save percentage ever? Expect a decline, people!
(But I still wouldn’t trade him)
Goalie save percentages have continually gone up over the years,
and greatly over the past 5-10yrs. Expect them to keep going up too with goalie continually adapting and the league doing minor(pads) to nothing to fix the situation.
Don't underestimate the law of diminishing return
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not....
….but who do we have to replace Rinne? Nobody, that’s who. Lindback couldn’t hold Rinne’s jockstrap over an entire season. Dekanich? Oops. Hellberg? Not yet. Chet Pickard? No way. Jeremy Smith? Maybe but I would be careful what you wish for.
Even if he pulls a .92 that’s still better than anybody else we have in the pipeline and better than an average goaltender. Fact is, we’re not quite sure what Pekka is cause he’s only had one great season. I don’t think it was a fluke, but that’s just my opinion.
Dude came in 4th in Hart trophy voting. Quit hating on him. In fact, that’s far better than Weber’s $7.5M year.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
And holy moly Dirk, I can't believe how long this thread is....
….it takes my computer like a minute to download it.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
does this break a record....
… for a non-game thread or something? do we win free pizza? beer?
I like chicken wings.
And pie.
And 19 goals is about 6 points, certainly significant but not “basement dwelling” difference. I’d bet you could tie Shea Weber back to 19 marginal goals for as well.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
19 goals is about 6 points for a lot of teams.
But for us, I’ll bet 19 goals is worth at least an order of magnitude of points.
So, we’re not in the playoffs and probably finish close to last in the West, which is what I said.
The truth is always the right answer....
by Pekka for Predator Pontiff on Aug 4, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You wouldn’t finish anywhere close to last, which is what I said. You could have dropped 30 points, 15 wins, and not even be bottom two in the West. Be realistic here. Yeah, without a Vezina caliber performance you guys probably don’t make the playoffs, but he’s not the difference between the basement and a 4/5 seed. He’s the difference between the bubble and the 4/5.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
without a Vezina caliber performance you guys probably don’t make the playoffs,
So why shouldn’t we keep Rinne, then?
"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Because you can’t bank on a Vezina performance ever year, and you probably don’t make the playoffs without Shea Weber either.
Obviously, this is all speculation.
But no other goalie will get us there. For the Preds’ needs, I’ll bet on Rinne (even at .925) before I bet on any other goalie in this league right now. Even Thomas, what with the 10 year age difference. ANY other goalie. And FTR, I want to keep all three, and not give up any of our strengths. I’m way more willing than most here to accept a modest improvement at forward in exchange for one of our young guys as opposed to giving up one of the Big3. Although, I currently expect Webs to be traded by the end of next summer.
"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.
I still say that doesn’t negate the point that we lose more than we gain from trading Rinne. You’re putting even more emphasis on an offense you already don’t trust. I don’t see how a trade nets us 20+ goals next season over last season when we lose 19 (by your figure above) by going with “Just Some Guy” in net.
"I'm a firm believer that in life, if you're happy then happy things will happen for you."--Bernie Parent
Part Predator, part Lightning.
Agreed
he might be “overpaid” in that we would have like to spend a little less on him, but he’s not overpaid.
Guys, if Weber would SIGN for 7.5 mil, he isn’t overpaid…but apparantly, he turned down a multiple year contract at 7 mil a year. I’d take Weber at 7.5 mil over 5-7 years.
So what is the number? 8?? 9?? 10??
THIS ONLY MEANS
That the Preds have to win it all this year. Mr Poile, go make the necessary moves and get some offense and then you can trade Weber in the next offseason and not be hated quite as much.
All I'm saying is this...
Think of Weber and Lidstrom, Suter as Rafalski (who was a damn good d-man in his own right) and Pekka being better than anyone Detroit could dress in goal…
All this team needs is a little infusion of money to sign some legitimate offense and it literally could be the next Detroit for the next 5-7 years.
Fisher is a start. Great trade IMO. Just one, maybe 2 guys puts this team over the top.
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
There you go.
Its not that we are a “Budget team” because EVERY team is a “Budget team” thats what the Cap is there for but currently we dont have the funds for a top of the cap style team. We have what we have for money and we are still looking for more investors but we have more room to play with as far as how much money we have to use. The ownership group has said they are willing to do what they can to make the team better and that long playoff run helped that bottom line and if in the next year or two we keep going 2 rounds or more that means more revenue and then more money to spend. Typical make money to spend it but have to spend it to make it.
So you want to follow the DET model and then deviate from the essential element of the DET model?
Sure, Pekka is better than anyone DET dressed in goal, but DET used that money to address other areas (like… offense).
Obviously, this is all speculation.
DET would have paid $5-6 mil for a goalie of Pekka’s caliber any day of the week, they just never found one. Spending the money on offense wasn’t and isn’t an essential part of the DET model—spending the money wisely is, however.
I saw an article somewhere, forget where, which addressed why DET never had a really big name goaltender in recent memory, and the answer basically was “Only a handful of goaltenders are actually worth Big Money, and though DET wanted one badly, none of them were within DET’s reach…and they weren’t willing to spend $6 million on a guy with a 40% chance of being really good.”
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts--for support rather than
illumination."
I seem to remember
a guy named Hasek. I think he was paid $6 mil by the Wings at least one season, though that was pre-lockout. He was offered $5 mil post-lockout but turned it down.
Are you suggesting that Hasek was of Pekka’s caliber? How silly.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts--for support rather than
illumination."
by Smashvillain on Aug 11, 2011 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Interview
Does anyone have the full interview from Shea. TSN had a partial blurb from Shea sounds like he still wants to stay.
DonBorvio originally posted this...
http://www.section303.com/the-30330-david-poile-shea-weber-address-the-media-12418
What happens on the ice...stays on the ice...
Yeah, this stinks for the Preds. On the other hand, DP’s got a pretty nice trading piece that’s his for the next two seasons and he can shop that piece around until 6/30/13.
Weber might now be the most hated Pred ever in franchise history. Way to go, Cap’n!
Lifelong Tennessean, Flyers' fan for life
Yup
I’ve lost some respect and admiration for him, but I still don’t hate him. However, I definitely won’t be putting Weber on my jersey.
Sidenote: I wonder if Weber brought his beard to arbitration?? I’m sure that bumped the price up at least half a mill.
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would someone who simply wants to get paid what the market will bear be hated? It’s not like he left to go play in another league while still under contract like someone else we know.
I think those who have bought into the “hometown discount” theory are going to be very disappointed with how the negotiations go with all of the big 3.
Shadows only exist when something of substance appears first.......
by Grizzledbear on Aug 3, 2011 10:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
shea now has about $340,000-$350,000 per month to live on. think doug will get a new organic grain fed dog food to munch on?
by predsbelonginblue on Aug 3, 2011 11:26 PM EDT reply actions
just saying, think i could make ends meet on that. for playing hockey. unreal
by predsbelonginblue on Aug 3, 2011 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
1st thing tomorrow i am going to go learn how to skate backwards!
by predsbelonginblue on Aug 3, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Woahhh
Easy now.. don’t want to get too ahead of yourself!
And don’t let Shea be a skating role model:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm71MxuZ_nU
"Next time someone tells you Nashville’s not a hockey town, tell ‘em to come try some of the home cookin’." - TSN Broadcaster
by Go_Titans_Preds_USC on Aug 3, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Sooo....
TJ Oshie, Barrett Jackman, Ty Rattie, and 1st sound good?
Is willing to go to the mattresses with the lot of yous.
You must be ingesting novacaine
terrible offer! start with Stewart, Shattenkirk and 2 First rounders…. and go from there.
by djzielin on Aug 4, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

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